| Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 05:05 AM |
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61st Post |
fryboy
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discussion i respect eh i can even handle a arguement now and then when it degenerates below that umm not so much <_<
i recall reading many things one was the slight bitterness of disbelief in elmer kieth's words over his test with synthetic bear muscle and penetration of bullets into said rubbery stuff...at that time his editor's didnt want to believe how deep a heavy solid slow moving pistol bullet would go as compared to "popular" rifle rounds of the time ....
IF i was to have a broadside shot on a cape buff with any gun i would try for where i thought the heart was which in truth i'm not sure on that buff but presume back edge of front shoulder 1/4 to 1/3 of the way down his barrel
with a 700 nitro i mite be stupid enough to go immediately behind the juncture of head and neck ,the shots i seen in the foto of the link appeared to be hi on the shoulder(the fact that two were found laying on the sand within about 10 yards amazes me !)looking at the foto and my knowledge of american buff i'd estimate that the one towards the rear and perhaps the next one closest to it came closest to the heart ( again my knowledge of these brutes is poor -ie; u can go ahead and tell me how wrong i am i dont mind lolz)i know i'd sure hate to have to run one down with a spear !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! even worse the biggest handguns are single shots and i would prefer at least a double barrel a 50 bmg with tungstun bullets mite do it but i dont recall one in a pistol
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 05:39 AM |
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62nd Post |
Irish Mike
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Klallen, I guess I am going to have to get you to give me some pointers on just what to load and how to shoot that .460 Smith & Wesson ok. Then we just call up Phil and book that Buff hunt with him together savvy! I hope you don't mind if I bring along a little insurance policy in the form of a .470-Capstick.
Now just what kind of bullets do you plan on shooting out of that handcannon anyway? My 460S&W shoots a 300 grain bullet at near 1700fps they tell me. I don't really know, as I have only shot the 240 grainers at 1700fps, Max is 2000fps according to Hornady manual.
Now according to what I read about the 500S&W, it can shoot a bullet plum near big as most big bores......Jumpin Horn-Toads! Now can you imagine a 500 grain bullet going almost as fast as my 45/70 Marlin....Mercy Sakes Alive! Well 1350fps ain't to bad for a big ole slug like a 500 grainer. I admit it is a bit on the shy side of my .458-Lott that pushes one at 2310fps. I don't rightly know how much more kinetic energy that LOTT delivers to the target, with an extra 1000fps velocity but it ought to surely be enough to give any Cape Buff a whale of a headache, if your pistol misfires.
Something I always wondered about was that thing they call Penetration!!! You have any idea how many oak boards that loaded pistol with premium bullets will penetrate? Not being one of them thar educated types from the Ivy League, I figured you might help me out in that catagory some. I have seen actual pictures of a PH's bullet (.416 Rigby) that penetrated over 20 feet of big tusker, now that is very impressive to this Irishman.
I am positive that Phil can square both of us away with his expertise and let us both capitolize on his past experience in the African bush. Now the first couple of days, being from Montana, you will be walking on eggs because of the snake stories and such. NO big deal OK, I am quite sure that Phil will put us at ease and tuck you into bed if need be at night, regardless of your concerns about the following day. You don't get to be a pro in Africa by going to gun shows, BSing about hunts and shooting mulies off the back porch out youndar way. Nice to have a certified PH in camp you betcha. Well, Klallen I got to go to bed now, you have sweat dreams about all those Buff you can beat to the draw....Good Nite!  
Last edited on Tue Mar 31st, 2009 05:44 AM by
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 01:45 PM |
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63rd Post |
klallen
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if i were to be hunting cape buff with a .460, it'd be loaded with the same bullet i currently have in my .454casull ... a 395 gr. lbt solid from cast performance. it reads 1400+ fps over the chrony so imagine the .460 would add 100 - 150 fps to that. maybe more.
if the .500s&w were ever to be used on large bodied animals, it would be loaded with a 500 gr. bullet. 1430 fps, chronied. larger then necessary, probably. hunters i've talked with who don't even reload have enjoyed good success with the heavy loaded cor-bon stuff and it uses a smallish 440 gr. lbt solid. i do have some development i want to get to this spring using a 700 gr. wfn.
handgun penetration was discussed earlier in the string. as was the overall performance issue. factors that define rifle cartridge performance. factors that define handgun performance. it's been hashed already.
and, why would my pistol misfire ? any of them ? 
regarding expertice. if you're going to condemn something, you better have an intimate knowledge of it. more then just "i don't think it'd work" or in your case, "i'm scared to find out if it would work". if you've hunted africa's dangerous your entire life, but never done so with handguns, you're no expert in the field. period. i respect the knowledge of those who've "done it". these are the opinion i've searched out. these are the experiences i've gleened to. listening to how what they used. how they loaded their revolvers and singleshots. this, my friend, is "valuable" expertice. i respect the heck out of phil's knowledge of things he's familiar with. and if i were looking to set up an african hunt in the country of tan where i'd be using my rifles, he would be a valuable resource to tap into. i've told him as much earlier in this string. regarding handguns and dangerous game hunting ... draw your own conclusions. based on my interaction with him in this string, he is not an "expert" on the topic. simply being to africa don't cut it. the experience on the specific topic just isn't there. that doesn't lessen or cheapen what he "does" know. just indicates to me i need to be going elsewhere if i want to get meaningful feedback on the specific topic at hand.
another thing interests me about your post. you talk like hunting africa should be a scary experience. be scared of the snakes. seriously, bud. pull back on the dramatics. i'd embrace the opportunity. fear would be the last thing on my mind. i'd respect the continent. but don't see any value in fearing it.?.?.?.?.?.? regardless, saving up the $$$ for a hunt is the frightening part. especially with an 18 month old and momma wanting a new home. now that's truely scarey !!!!!!!!! africa's just another experience to be enjoyed if you can foot the bill.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 02:21 PM |
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64th Post |
Dirtkicker
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PhilLozano wrote: Dirtkicker wrote: Irish Mike wrote: Dirtkicker the source belong to a very distinguished English gentleman, who was very much in tune with Africa back in the 50's and 60's. 
With all due respect, Mike, that's a BS "source" if I ever read one. Means absolutely nothing.
Try -
"The Life and Times of Fredrick Selous" as a source.
Many of the "old time" Ivory Hunters were not the sportsman we would like to think they were. They shot animals and if it got dangerous, they let them go.
I can't recall the guys name, (but I can look it up) that said in his book, something to the effect that, if one wounded a Cape Buffalo, it was far too dangerous to go into the heavy bush after him.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
For you handgun hunters.
Where do you shoot when the Buffalo is broad side ? (pick a spot).
Thank you, Phil. That's helpful.
Mike, shame on you. It's not my fault that you apparently don't know what a "source" is. People who like the truth value them. Sorry you felt compelled to deal in crude, childish insults.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 02:40 PM |
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65th Post |
Irish Mike
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Excuse me "Dirtkicker"!!! Now that source was my Grandfather and I can assure you it does mean something.....to me pal.
Now as far as sources go, I have a whole library of books on Africa and India, as well as contacts with those who have earned their stripes in the bush in both places. Good day! 
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 03:17 PM |
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66th Post |
Irish Mike
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Klallen, I wish you lots of prosperity on raising that new born of yours and your wife's and Congrats by the way, now real life starts for both you adults yep. Is this your first baby? Well, don't forget to add a couple more early down the road, kids need playmates too!
Well, I grabbed my manual this morning just to check the figures out some more. My .470-Capstick shoots a 500 grain bullet at say 2400fps. According to A-Square manual "Any Shot You Want", page 258 OK. The Shock Power Index gives a figure of 363 for a .338 Win mag 250 grain bullet, 478 for a .375 H&H 300 grain bullet, 458 Win mag 500 grain bullet gets a 761 at 2040fps. Just so others can get an idea of facts. Now my 470 has a "shock power index" of 1133....not to shabby hey!
The Penetration Index gives the .338 Win mag a score of 141, the .375H&H rates a 120, 458 Win mag earns a 97 and my 470-Capstick comes home with a 114. Once again interesting to some perhaps but math is math they say.
Muzzle Energy in Ft - Lbs has the .338 win mag at 4046, the .375H&H receives a 4331, 458 Win mag is at 4620 and last but not least is the 470-Capstick having a 6394 ft-lbs of muzzle energy.
So I ask you Klallen, where does your 500 S&W fall in line at compared with figures given by A-Square's manual of indexes etc.? I only know what my Hornady manual has listed with 500 grain jacketed bullet and Maxed out at 1350fps.
Now in reference to what I have read and heard from a few PH's over on the Dark Continent, they suggest a bullet of at least 400 grains, 500 better yet and a velocity of 2400fps. I once had a conversation with another Mike about this velocity and his tests run on a couple of big bores. He agreed that 2400fps was the ideal velocity in which to have when hunting dangerous game animals.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 04:05 PM |
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67th Post |
klallen
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i m, if you'll read the string, you'll see we've already discussed the impossibility of trying to quantify handgun cartridge performance using equations, formulas and indexes designed specifically for rifle cartridges. they simply can not equate any meaningful data for comparison. round nose soft points or solids at high velocity from a rifle do not work the same as flat point solids at moderate velocities from a handgun. they do what they do so differently. rifles rely on velocity and energy to get the job done. handguns rely on momentum and large meplats to get the job done. you will never find a rifle equation shed any sort of meaningful light on handgun cartridge performance simply because the equation isn't designed to factor in the strengths of a large handgun bullet. that's bare bone facts of it all.
bud, what you need to recognize here is that this handgun / dangerous game thing isn't something i'm just pulling out of my ass for arguement sake. it's been done. large handgun cartridges have been proven to work. again, and again, and again. contrary to your thinking, hunters have indeed walked away from the experience unscathed. sci record books are filled with handgun hunters who have taken "all" of the dangerous game of the world. all the bear. all the cats. anything else africa has to offer. rino, elephant. it's been done. repeatedly. now, there's a reason they work. weather you want to admit it or choose to hunt in such a manor yourself is completely your choice. but you have to recognize, even if you can't explain why, they do indeed work. it's not something wrapped up in an energy number and it will never be a neat little figure derived from an equation or formula ment to evaluate rifle performance.
2400 fps has indeed been the "golden standard" for a heavy, round nose bullet on dangerous game in africa ... from a rifle. it's the velocity i desire in my .416remmag with a 400gn. round nose bullet. which, again, happens to be a rifle. see, when rifles are discussed, i pretty much fall in line with what's considered standard or popular. course, lately, i've reworked things and use a 370 gr. northfork bonded sp in my .416 at around 2630 fps. i think that'd work well on a buff, too.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 06:04 PM |
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68th Post |
Irish Mike
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Klallen, if you will write just a tad larger, some of us older folkes could read your readeric and make out what it is your trying to spit out on paper Sprout OK.
I don't have time to use a magnifying glass to spiher your words of wisdom by cracky. It is not that difficult to just punch in the number 3 and cause that Montana ink out your pen to grow just a little.  
Now on second thought, YOU send me a PM and your land line number and I'll spend a dime or two to call you up real personal like understand. I'll let you tell me all about this pistol I got that will kill Buffalo's and Elephants too!!!
Last edited on Tue Mar 31st, 2009 06:07 PM by
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 07:49 PM |
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69th Post |
klallen
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slip the ole tri-focals on and you'll be fine.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 08:13 PM |
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70th Post |
fryboy
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as a side note .... most internet browsers have in their tools a text sizer set it to what works best for urself
with that thought i sometimes wonder why when i reply ( without changing text settings ) that sometimes my words are big n bold n black but mostly normal sized ? keep in mind that i dont adjust any of the settings.....
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 10:03 PM |
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71st Post |
PhilLozano
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klallen wrote: if i were to be hunting cape buff with a .460, it'd be loaded with the same bullet i currently have in my .454casull ... a 395 gr. lbt solid from cast performance. it reads 1400+ fps over the chrony so imagine the .460 would add 100 - 150 fps to that. maybe more.
if the .500s&w were ever to be used on large bodied animals, it would be loaded with a 500 gr. bullet. 1430 fps, chronied. larger then necessary, probably. hunters i've talked with who don't even reload have enjoyed good success with the heavy loaded cor-bon stuff and it uses a smallish 440 gr. lbt solid. i do have some development i want to get to this spring using a 700 gr. wfn.
handgun penetration was discussed earlier in the string. as was the overall performance issue.
Not really. You wanted to discuss penetration, not overall performance, like energy levels, which is the way almost everyone on the planet estimates killing power . . . . . . . even you in some of your posts on other topics.
factors that define rifle cartridge performance. factors that define handgun performance. it's been hashed already.
and, why would my pistol misfire ? any of them ?
regarding expertice. if you're going to condemn something, you better have an intimate knowledge of it. more then just "i don't think it'd work" or in your case, "i'm scared to find out if it would work". if you've hunted africa's dangerous your entire life, but never done so with handguns, you're no expert in the field. period.
That would apply to yourself as well. You are no expert either. Period !
I would say, I have intimate knowledge of Buffalo. You ? Not so much. However, you can prove me wrong, right here, right now and pretty quickly.
What is the fastest, easiest way to determine if a bull Buffalo is 8 or more years old ? And being that you are the self proclaimed expert on Africa (and I'm not), give us a little advise on how to tell a male from a female Ostrich or here's an easier one, a male from a female Zebra. Should be a snap for "the expert".
i respect the knowledge of those who've "done it". these are the opinion i've searched out. these are the experiences i've gleened to. listening to how what they used.
You mean like the P.H.'s you referenced as experts ? The ones that you are not sure of what country they even hunt in ? Are those really the experiences you've "gleened to" ? From nameless P.H. strangers ?
how they loaded their revolvers and singleshots. this, my friend, is "valuable" expertice. i respect the heck out of phil's knowledge of things he's familiar with.
Well thanks !. And I respect your knowledge of hunting in the Western U.S.
and if i were looking to set up an african hunt in the country of tan where i'd be using my rifles, he would be a valuable resource to tap into. i've told him as much earlier in this string. regarding handguns and dangerous game hunting ... draw your own conclusions. based on my interaction with him in this string, he is not an "expert" on the topic.
Between the 2 of us, I have shot a few more Cape Buffalo than you, yet you claim to know how it all should work when plugging a Buff. Have you ever even seen a Cape Buffalo in the wild ?
simply being to africa don't cut it.
It "cuts it" a lot more as an experienced opinion than being in Montana does.
the experience on the specific topic just isn't there.
The same applies to you. You don't have any experience on the subject you speak about either. Your experience is limited to what you have hunted. Your experience on Buffalo, just isn't there.
that doesn't lessen or cheapen what he "does" know. just indicates to me i need to be going elsewhere if i want to get meaningful feedback on the specific topic at hand.
Like where ? Please let me know the country that allows handgun hunting for DG, where the animals are fair chase and free roaming.
another thing interests me about your post. you talk like hunting africa should be a scary experience.
I'd say you should not be scared. However, you should be aware that you just stepped into a link of the food chain.
be scared of the snakes. seriously, bud. pull back on the dramatics. i'd embrace the opportunity. fear would be the last thing on my mind. i'd respect the continent. but don't see any value in fearing it.?.?.?.?.?.? regardless, saving up the $$$ for a hunt is the frightening part. especially with an 18 month old and momma wanting a new home. now that's truely scarey !!!!!!!!! africa's just another experience to be enjoyed if you can foot the bill.
Good luck with the new family. . . . . . . . . they way the economy is going, you'll need it.
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Phil
Stay out of sight and downwind
Professional Hunter / Tanzania
http://www.go-on-safari.com
http://www.go-on-safari.com/talk
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 11:09 PM |
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72nd Post |
klallen
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p l , your opinion is documented. your "expertice" is established. clear understanding of both was realized very early in the discussion. a new little playmate has given you second wind, it appears. i do love the topic a great deal but i'm not all that interested in more long winded, rainbow postings (from me or you). it'd just be a wide circling rehash of things already said that'd just lead back to what's already been established. sincere apologies, if that seems rude. i just don't have the time right now.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 11:26 PM |
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73rd Post |
PhilLozano
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So, you now admit (by the lack of your answers to my questions) that you have not taken part in the ultimate hunting experience (Africa's dangerous game), and have absolutly no
experience with shooting Cape Buffalo with a handgun or anything else. So in actuallity, you are the one with the lesser of the qualifications to answer this post (at least I've shot a few hundred). You ? What ? How many ? Can't quite make out your answer from your last post.
You can bow out as you wish, as your lack of answers to the simple questions I asked, (that even a first year apprentice would know the answers to), expose you as . . . . . well, less than an expert on the subject (and as you would say)
period !
Perhaps since I have shot only a few dozen deer, I should instruct you on how to hunt deer where you live. That sounds pretty silly, doesn't it.
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Phil
Stay out of sight and downwind
Professional Hunter / Tanzania
http://www.go-on-safari.com
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 11:53 PM |
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74th Post |
klallen
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only a fool would interpret a lack of response as an admission of anything, phil.
or a high school student. they play kiddy games like that.
it is what it is, bud ... simply a lack of response.
i've talked with you plenty on the topic and know the sum total of your knowledge. if we were talking about buff and rifle hunting, you'd be a wealth of knowledge. unfortunately, we aren't. near as i've been able to add up, you and i have the same exact kill count of buffalo taken with a handgun. zero. however, ones invested a large amount of time educating himself about the prospect. the other's convinced it can't be done and chooses to keep the blinders on.
i'm comfortable with what's been said.
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Irish Mike
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Klallen.....So now your an eye doctor to? In your spare time maybe hey.
Let me say, that your obsession with killing dangerous game with your pistol is noted understand. So I ask YOU, when is your next Dangerous Game Hunt going to take place. Jumpin Jimmy Jack fella! I just might want to be there and witness this hand cannon of yours out due my big bore rifles.
Now being the MATH Wizard you seem to want us to believe, I only know what I read in the books and newspaper. Will Rogers taught me that when I was just a young sprout ok.
Now back to the subject matter shall we. My .470-Capstick shoots a 900 fps faster than your 500 Smith & Wesson and develops over twice the kinetic energy too! Klallen using your pistol on dangerous game, is like trying to put in a days work in a framing crew, driving 16 penny nails all day with a friggin tack hammer. There is NO PISTOL out there on the market today nor ever has been, that can match a big bore dangerous game hunting rifle.
Now let me give you another senerio you might understand! A farmer has a 1000 acres of ground to plow and plant. He has 12 days to get it all done according to the local crop records down at the Farmers Extension Center ok.
Now he needs a tractor to get the plowing job done ASAP!!! He brings home a FORD 40hp tractor of 1958 vintage, it is shinny and sparkles from the rehab job done on it and what a bargin at a bargin price. Only thing is, this tractor is a 2 plow tractor you see and it would take him all spring to plow a 1000 acres with it in the time alotted for getting the ground ready and that is were your big pistol lies my Mr. Montana Gentleman. It is far short of what it should be, even though it might end up killing something down the road. You could end up being the person they pick up in a body bag.
You need to listen to those who know! Those that can tell you up front, what will work and what is hazardous to your health. I think pistols are great to hunt with Klallen but only on thin skinned animals, that don't try to dine on your hide. I think if you booked a hunt with Phil and you took your .416 along, you just might change your attitude about what you can or want to hunt with that pistol on the continent of Africa.
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Dirtkicker
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Well, Mike, I have to say: You certainly have helped to "change the neighborhood" with your 49 posts.
You're to be congratulated.
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klallen
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not a doctor, i m . just encouraging you to put the goggles on. i imagine it'd help the reading situation you find yourself in.
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PhilLozano
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klallen wrote: only a fool would interpret a lack of response as an admission of anything, phil.
Ok, I'm a fool. Now, lets have your answers, now that you know you are being asked to answer them.
or a high school student. they play kiddy games like that.
it is what it is, bud ... simply a lack of response.
So you do not choose to enlighten us.
Come on . . . . here's your chance to put me in the scrap heap. You know, impress everyone as the designated buffalo expert.
i've talked with you plenty on the topic and know the sum total of your knowledge. if we were talking about buff and rifle hunting, you'd be a wealth of knowledge. unfortunately, we aren't. near as i've been able to add up, you and i have the same exact kill count of buffalo taken with a handgun. zero.
However, the fact remains, you have 0 Buffalo to your credit with anything . . . . . is that correct. At least I have seen a few of them killed. Do you know what reaction a Buffalo has to a quartering away shot, vs a broadside shot ? Or what reaction you get with a hight heart shot ?
Well, do you ? Come on, enlighten us. Or maybe it is a FACT, you don't have a clue. And if you do, please . . . do tell.
however, ones invested a large amount of time educating himself about the prospect. the other's convinced it can't be done and chooses to keep the blinders on.
i'm comfortable with what's been said.
When you choose to pick and choose answers to questions asked, it seems to me it is due to a lack of a proper answer and then you look foolish as well. Seems to me, perhaps you have not educated yourself the same as you accuse me of doing, or rather not doing.
Ok, here's your chance again to show us your knowledge of Buffalo. Answer all the questions.
When you know little about the animals you speak of, and play with the big dogs, you get bit.
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Best,
Phil
Stay out of sight and downwind
Professional Hunter / Tanzania
http://www.go-on-safari.com
http://www.go-on-safari.com/talk
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Irish Mike
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Klallen your posts to Phil, are like someone trying to make a book report and they don't want to read the book savvy.
Dirtkicker....I do think your count is off by at least 300 posts or so. Thank you for the complement sir!~
You see, he can be a nice guy outside the ring! My fathers words, not mine.
Last edited on Wed Apr 1st, 2009 01:05 AM by
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fryboy
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fryboy wrote: (plz note big lettered word ---> if
IF i was to have a broadside shot on a cape buff with any gun i would try for where i thought the heart was which in truth i'm not sure on that buff but presume back edge of front shoulder 1/4 to 1/3 of the way down his barrel
with a 700 nitro i mite be stupid enough to go immediately behind the juncture of head and neck ,the shots i seen in the foto of the link appeared to be hi on the shoulder(the fact that two were found laying on the sand within about 10 yards amazes me !)looking at the foto and my knowledge of american buff i'd estimate that the one towards the rear and perhaps the next one closest to it came closest to the heart ( again my knowledge of these brutes is poor -ie; u can go ahead and tell me how wrong i am i dont mind lolz)
the above is true and yes u may call me a dead kitty but i am ( and admit it ) curious as i said on this subject i have no clue altho i estimate that i could be off by a foot or more ,the neck comment -i'd want a big gun period,the only experience i have is with american buff -surely not in the list of DG- but i have seen at least 30-40 of these noble beast shot ,(these were not tame hunts btw )of those i have intimate knowledge of their innards, the original post of how much it cost to hunt cape i havent seen answered,for me that doesnt matter as i'm quite sure that i dont have the funds,i will admit that i have enjoyed most the discussion , the ummm rest not so much ,i know that buff's were killed before fire arms were invented but as i said i'd sure hate to have to run one of these down with a spear , i also know that they have been killed with fire arms of both the long and short varieties and am pretty sure that a few have stomped the would be "killers" (both those with spears and firearms to a pulp )the one u use for a avatar is a awesum specimen i know i'd sure hate to have to run one down with a spear !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! even worse the biggest handguns are single shots and i would prefer at least a double barrel a 50 bmg with tungstun bullets mite do it but i dont recall one in a pistol
edit for misspelling * list of DG*not lost of DG Last edited on Wed Apr 1st, 2009 02:09 AM by fryboy
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(happy shootin'-the best way to get empty brass!)
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