klallen
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phil, i have not shot a cape buffalo. it's been said before. a rehash of what's already been hashed. i'll say it again. i have not shot a cape buffalo. it's a fact i'm certainly not embarrassed about. and a fact i've never hid from in this entire conversation. as such, i have not seen a cape buffalo react to a broadside hit. or a quartering away or quartering to impact. or hit high in the heart.
are you suggesting "my" lack of in-field experience on cape buffalo somehow proves dangerous game can not be cleanly taken by handgun hunters?
are you suggesting "my" lack of in-field experience on cape buffalo somehow proves "all" dangerous game have not cleanly been taken by handgun hunters?
that's what we're talking about, after all. dangerous game and handguns. it's been done. it will be done, again. with all kinds of revolvers from small .44's to the .500 . you may not like it but it is so.
"my" lack of in-field experience does nothing to lessens the value of data and information i've been able to gather from hunters over the years who've done exactly what you disclaim. you're 100% correct. i've never put a cape buffalo on the ground. but i know it's been done. over and over and over. elephant. over and over and over. rino. over and over and over. kodiak brown bear. over and over and over. lion. over and over and over. hardcore handgun hunters do nothing but hunt with handguns. these are knowns, phil. they're out there. these are unargueable facts. you can certainly "try" to condemn the act as being irresponsible if you choose but tomorrow a handgun will put a cape buffalo down. and the next day another handgun will put an elephant down. rather then yell foul 9 years ago, i chose to dig into the topic. while i may never choose to hunt as they do, i like knowing what these guys use to accomplish the task. i've developed loads to duplicate performance that's proven effective (by others) on the dangerous stuff. i do so not because i expect to see an elephant on the open plains of montana. but because i like the idea of having the load on hand and practicing with it. i respect the hell out of what these guys do with their weapon of choice and i value their imput on components that work. if you want to use "my" lack of in-field experience to disrespect "me", that's fine. this has never been about "me". and no matter how much you blow your own horn, it isn't about you either. it's always been handguns and dangerous game hunting. to this point, your remarks have done nothing to lessen the fact that handguns work in the field on the largest of dangerous game.
"When you know little about the animals you speak of, and play with the big dogs, you get bit."
there's nothing i love more then seeing an older fella talk tough. "play with the big dogs, u gonna get yoself bit". my lord. flashbacks to grade school, bud. looking back, the phrase really wasn't all that cool then. today, from the keypad of ... well ... you, it's just plain creepy. lol.
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PhilLozano
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Because you know of these guys.
Who are the guys you know ?
And where did they hunt ?
With whom ?
And being you have no experience with doing it, creepy or not, it fits.
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Phil
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Professional Hunter / Tanzania
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Irish Mike
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Klallen, man you been burning up the keys on the ole PC today!
Your part about "Old Men Talking Tuff" (66/6/1) was kind of cute in a way Klallen. Now I don't know what the dog thing is understand. You may have to enlighten me as I missed my afternoon nap so to speak. How many times you been bit by a dog? Sound like you know a lot about dogs too perhaps.
If you do, I'll call you up and you can teach me a thing or three maybe. Always did have this yurning for a couple of good dogs mate! Hey, I got fed real well tonight by the wife of many years. So when are you booking that Big Dangerous Game Hunt with PHIL???
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Irish Mike
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Phil, I was just being a bit facetious.   
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fryboy
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being as tanz. doesnt allow handgun hunting of dg i doubt that's where k's thoughts are , what is plain is that he wishes to hear from other's experiences and perhaps as i do to find out where this critters vitals best be reached , it may be worthless info that he may never have to put to the test
mike the keys burning up seems to be a several laned two way street ie: a major freeway at rush hour and even i enjoy a drive now and then
i love a decent debate eh i can even handle a arguement now and then
i see nothing in sport hunting in fact i destest it ,as the guy i met who had shot 5 african buff thought it was great to spend 45 minutes and 5 shots wounding a american buff to death just so he could have a trophy on the wall to me that isnt sporting at all rather it fills a void in his general lack of ethics and morality and self worth ,had he however wished to eat this beast i perhaps would of had a better opinion of him and of all sport hunters if it was truely a "sporting chance" to me that means without hi power weapons that the other critter doesnt have ,i used to bowhunt and still do when i can find the time from having to help my government pay for it's latest tax craze ,they say daniel boone killed a bear with nothing but a knife - i know that he didnt go into the woods looking for this bear to kill with a knife but that it was done out of necessity to insure his own survival quite unlike sport hunting and all the much more commendable for it ,phil makes his living from taking these so called sport hunters with the money to the game they wish to shoot and i too cringe at the thought of some one not shooting good and i hope phil and his umm customers have the best of luck , i too rooted for the lion in that video,i knew it wasnt good for that noble beast and the odds were against him but if a man walked into that bush armed with only a spear and a knife i would then call the deed well done but as it were it was several guys with several guns and the guy almost didnt make it how bleepin sporting is that ?it's not it's murder plain and simple ..... i have seen alot of discussion and even banter in this thread as well as thinly vieled insults etc i have yet to see a answer to the original question ,sad that ,every deer i slayed it was murder ditto for elk and american buffalo , i could console myself with the fact that i hunt for meat that isnt injected with growth hormones and god knows what else ( i kno i was raised on a ranch and have worked cows from feedlots to pastures )the only thing i kill just because i can and dont eat is varmits ,i wont shoot anything else that i dont eat but these are my ethics and i alone have to live with them and my conscious,as i said i have yet to see a answer for the original question and no matter how some one wants to insult me or another etc this thread will recieve no more reads from me , i wish ya'll the best and many safe hunts
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klallen
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PhilLozano wrote: Who are the guys you know ? handgun hunters, are the guys i've communicated with.
And where did they hunt ? africa. didn't care specifically "where" the hunting took place. i wanted to know "how" the hunt went down.
With whom ? i care less about who these guys hunt with then i do where they did the hunting. it's meaningless data bearing no importance . although, knowing what we know now, we can safely assume they didn't hunt tanzania.
handguns used? scopes used?
cartridges used?
handload or factory?
components used?
external performance of the cartridge?
on-game performance experienced?
distance of shot?
game taken?
stuff along these lines is what interests me.
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Irish Mike
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Fryboy, tune in tomorrow for the continuing SAGA of Pistilero's on the DARK CONTINENT part 1 
PS, dont for get to turn off the freeway, or you will be late for sitting down to the table ok. 
Klallen, I'll go see if I can find some of those Africa shot animals in my collection downstairs. I must have a book around here or there with some pictures of something. Hey, you got any of those pistol shot big game animals you can post? 
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klallen
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you fascinated with pictures, i m ? fair enough. here's one :
.475 maximum and a 420 gr. lfn. complete penetration.
how about another :
.475 linebaugh and a 420gr. lfn @ 1400 fps.
figured beartooth would be good for a couple examples.
let's have another:
ruger .45colt and a 325 gr. lfn. hunters own words are over on buffalo bore if ya want to read. sounded like a challenge of a hunt, for sure.
now, that's just a couple from a few seconds searching rooting around. you want more, find them yourself.
somehow, i get the impression you think i'm the singular one that manufactured this idea of hunting dangerous game with a handgun. lol. rest assured, i'm not.
you don't only have hunters hunting these animals. you have big name ammunition manufacturers catering to them.
buffalo bore's a prime example. creators of handgun ammo ment for the hunting of dangerous game including all the usual suspects ... .44remmag+p, .45colt+p, .454casull, .460s&wmagnum, .475linebaugh, .480ruger, .500s&wmagnum and .500linebaugh.
from over on the cor-bon site :
"CORBON's Hunter loads are tough enough to hunt the world over. They have been used by our customers on hunts for African big game, including Rhino and Cape Buffalo. No matter what your target, you'll have a successful hunt with CORBON's Hunter line of ammunition."
if you're unclear as to what they're advertising here, it's a line of ammo specifically for the hunter who persue the most dangerous of game. handgun cartridges they identify as appropriate include, but are not limited to, the .454casull, .460s&wmagnum and the .500s&wmagnum.
i get the fact you and phil may not approve of such things. but it simply don't matter. enough folks are hunting in such a mannor as to make it a viable venture for big name ammo manufacturers. a pretty good indicator of how brisk business most be as we all know, in the gun industry, if it don't make money, it isn't around for long.
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PhilLozano
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So, in truth, you don't really know anyone that has done it.
You only know of, or know that it has been done. p
So these magical P.H.'s you quoted and these hunters that have hunted with handguns are really just people you know about . . . . . . . you don't really know them.
You photos do not prove your point or anything else.
As I said, a 222 will kill an Elk, but it is not a good cartridge choice to select for Elk hunting. There is a difference.
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Phil
Stay out of sight and downwind
Professional Hunter / Tanzania
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PhilLozano
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Another question for you.
How many people were injuried in the taking of the Buffalo you have posted photos of ?
Also, how many total Buffalo were shot to get the photo of the 1 - Buffalo in each picture you posted ?
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Phil
Stay out of sight and downwind
Professional Hunter / Tanzania
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Irish Mike
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Klallen, in all honesty pictures are nice to look at but they really don't prove how the animal was taken understand. I have watched video's of deer hunts and other animals being harvested but it really doesn't give you the whole jest of what went on prior to the animals demise.
In Spain they have the running of the bulls every year! It is a joyous time but with these bulls bred to charge a person in the ring. People think that by getting out into the street it is a brave thing to do, I disagree totally but I am not in Spain. Every year people get gored!
I think what Phil is saying and I am not putting words into his mouth by any means, is that YOU may be able to kill a Cape Buffalo with a handgun but it is a little like running of the bulls in Spain. YOU are taking one heck of a chance going out and confronting those running bulls. The odds of getting seriously hurt or killed jumps far in favor of the animal.
So with all do respect young man, I agree that my .460 Ruger can kill perhaps anything that walks on this earth, it just is not safe enough nor the proper tool in my eyes to try to accomplish this task. Now it is time for me to eat something and go let my birds fly!
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klallen
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names is what you're getting hung up on, now? seriously, phil. you're making a huge deal about information (names and places) that simply has no bearing on the specific topic ... handguns, handgun hunters, dangerous game and experiences. if all you're interested in is names, go over to sci and print yourself off their handgun entries. you can dabble with names. i'll continue collecting experirences.
the photo's were not posted for your benefit. i m requested them. i m got what he requested. you and i have talked long enough that i already knew how you'd view any photos posted. you see a handgun, you see a hunter and you see a downed cape buffalo ... and "it proves nothing".
"a 222 will kill an Elk, but it is not a good cartridge choice to select for Elk"
very true. honestly, i don't consider my.243 or .25-06 to be "good" elk cartridges. a light, small cal bullet just doesn't define "good" for me in this instance. however, my personal feelings don't lessen the reality that each hunting season, elk are cleanly taken with .243's and .25-06's. every single year. i may not like it, but i certainly can't deny the effectiveness if accurately shot. just like a .458lott in the hands of a poor marksmen will turn a cape buff hunt into a bad day. it's all about two things, near as i can tell. 1, choosing a cartridge capable of handling the job. and 2, having that cartridge in the hands of a shooter who will hit the mark. large bore handgun cartridges have proven themselves more then capable in africa and around the world. like me, elk and the small cal's above, you may not like it, but it's a fact that's already been established. loose link in the chain is the fella pulling the trigger. if he does his job, buff's down and he's on to the next animal on the list. if he doesn't, as with a poorly shot rifle cartridge, a good day of hunting may turn bad.
"How many people were injuried in the taking of the Buffalo you have posted photos of ?"
i have no reason to believe injuries were sustained while taking any of the buff in the above photos.
"Also, how many total Buffalo were shot to get the photo of the 1 - Buffalo in each picture you posted ?"
i have no reason to believe the buff in the above photo's aren't infact the same buff hit with the initial shot.
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klallen
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i m , respectfully, i've gotta kind of remove you from the conversation. the side chatter is bogging things down. you're running with the bulls, tractor, etc, references are pointless. the "enlarge your print so i can read" requests tiresome. the "give me photos" requests then "photo's mean nothing" responses waste my time. you're a new fella to the site. i usually cut new guys some lattitude as they try and establish their pecking order on a new talk site. you've done so.
i encourage you to continue posting on the topic if you so choose. just understand, from this point forward, you're words will be passed over by me.
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Irish Mike
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Klallen I'll just say that you can do what YOU wish! However, I was being a nice guy trying to explain a point that YOU still don't seem to be able to grasp worth a hoot savvy.
You can rant and rave until the cows come home to your dinner table but that is NOT going to convince this old man, that your foolish notion of hunting dangerous game with pistols is COOL OR THE THING TO DO because somebody made a big pistol.
I give a Rats Behind if you do, your not even a NOVICE HUNTER when it comes to Africa savvy!!! Now just to remind you to be respectful to your elders sprout. YOU are no one else will try to talk down to me, especially when they don't know the subject matter and not an ounce of experience on the topic. I'll also say this to YOU, there will be a moon made out of cheese, the day YOU remove me from anything kiddo.
You seem to forget PHIL is a PRO at what he does.....keeps people like you from getting their "ARSE" run over by Mr. Black Death!!! Now you can stick that in your pipe and try smoking it up in that big sky country or better yet, just go piss up a rope pal. PS...Klallen your on my IGNORE LIST bud.
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Dirtkicker
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Mike,
My brief post above wasn't really meant as a compliment, but I suspect that you knew that and your affection for sarcasm couldn't resist a response to my own weakness in that regard. (The post count, by the way, is the one that appears to the left of your posts, so if it is off, I can't really take the responsibility for it. I really don't keep that close a tab on you. If you have a complaint about the posts credited to you, you should take it up with board management.)
I've been on a few internet gun boards. For many, unfortunately, there is a common pattern of demise. I've found most gun and hunting people to be good folk: honest, open, generous, helpful to a fault. But there is another, darker, aspect to "gun boards."
Often a few "ringers" will show up. Guys with a lot of time on their hands, and attitude, and unresolved personal issues of anger and aggression. They will answer posts, poke and probe, posture about their experience and their macho toughness, and generally promote their own personal aggrandizement to the detriment of the tone of the board they have assaulted. They don't really care about the board they are mugging; they only care for promoting their own inflated image of themselves. I say "inflated" and shouldn't use that term because this peculiar pathology usually comes from a sense of inadequacy. Sometimes they suck up and "support" another poster that they identify as an alpha. It would be funny if it weren't so destructive to the group they are undermining.
I hate it when this happens, as it so often seems to on gun-related sites. It's unpleasant for several reasons. One, because it often happens to boards I enjoy and value and whose members I respect and like. And, two, because I am acutely aware that we gun folk are under scrutiny now as we never have been before. When a supposedly pro-gun person shows up and displays a flagrant lack of logic and reason, a rude, aggressive attitude, and a propensity to sling insults— when this happens I mourn for the board I enjoyed and tried to make a contribution to because I know that the arrival of the vultures signals the end of the fun.
I don't expect you to understand what I have written above. You will be too busy crafting responses that are exculpatory and are, by your lights at least, "witty and devastating." After all, you are far from unique— I've seen your kind before.
That's my opinion. Do with it what you will.
Sincerely,
Dirtkicker
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Irish Mike
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Dirtkicker! Well, you sure picked a great username fella. Now I am "mugging you and the board" Ummmmm I don't think so bud. You insulted a family member of mine bud and I don't take that to lightly at all.
I do believe you wish to mix things up and keep it going but I will have none of that jester. No I am off to better things and don't have time to mix with the likes of people like yourself. Please do ignore me period and don't respond to any of my posts, as it will only cause you heartburn no doubt.
I think you need to find a hole and crawl up inside, please don't forget to take a pillow to lay your head on, I want you to be cozy ok Mr. Dirtkicker.
Last edited on Wed Apr 1st, 2009 03:48 PM by
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klallen
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dirtkicker, the valuable collection of contributors (founders, moderators and members) we have gathered here at handloadersbench are going nowhere.
people will come and people will go.
the site will remain the constant. rest assured, things are always being monitored, discussed and considered for the overall health of the site.
enjoy it. participate as you always have.
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Ranch 13
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So how's about an answer to the original question?
How much would a cape buffalo hunt cost?
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klallen
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hey r13. i think i've seen trophy fees generally in the $2200 - $2800 range. quick google found a place in zam that had an all-inclusive cape buf package listed at just under $10K. plus the fees that aren't in the "all-inclusive" ... ride to'n from, tips and getting the trophy back ... whatever that entails. there were loads other places with packages to investigate for pricing but being at work, don't have the time to rifle through all of them. there's loads.
regarding pricing in general, ihave a close friend who's family has hunted africa twice. he claims his trips and the game he got were cheaper then what i spent in nebraska a couple years back for an elk and two exotic rams. they didn't hunt any dangerous stuff. sounds reasonable enough, i guess. i believe they were hunting south africa. would have to confirm that. bow hunters, they are. they were poking fun at our ranch hunts we've enjoyed over the years here in the states but i saw as many high fences in their hunting pics as there were anywhere we've hunted. maybe something typical of south africa. i don't know. as of the last time i talked with him, they were still waiting for their trophies from the second trip to arrive. either way, it looked like they had fun. that's all that matters.
chat with ya later.
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A Big Mouth Don't Make A Big Man !!!
THE DUKE
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