Ranch 13
Handloading Master
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Korey I've seen some of those hunts down as low as 5500 for buff, but don't know if that included the trophy fee or not.
If I ever get to Africa the only things I'm really interested in is the Cape buffalo, and a Kudu.
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klallen
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i hear ya, r13. there's lot of things i'm interested in over there. only cape buffalo of the dangerous stuff, but all of the larger plains game sound like a fun hunt and a beautiful shoulder mount once they get back home.
problem i usually run into is i find thinking about africa to much leads me back to the fact i've got a beve of game i'm just as interested in hunting yet on this continent i've not taken the opportunity to do. big moose. caribou. a big horn sheep from up sun canyon way, just a few short miles west of my current location.
always seem to tear myself into trying to decide exactly where i'd like to spend my hunting dollar.
in time, i hope to get all bases covered.
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PhilLozano
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klallen wrote: names is what you're getting hung up on, now? seriously, phil.
Seriously. Who are these mistery people you have illuded to in many posts here. You said you spoke top them. You said you communicated with them on the phone. Funny, you call therm, then can't remember their names. Not even their initials.
you're making a huge deal about information (names and places) that simply has no bearing on the specific topic
It's cred, Bud, and you have none. Only stories you read. In fact, you personally don't know anyone that has taken a Cape Buffalo with a handgun . . . . . do you ?
Well, I do know someone that shot an Elk with a 222 (RE: below). You want his number ? I'll offer up his number, now you do the same for these references you continue to say that you know. Let's have your references. I have a list of references I'll send you.
Let's see your cred.
... handguns, handgun hunters, dangerous game and experiences. if all you're interested in is names, go over to sci and print yourself off their handgun entries. you can dabble with names. i'll continue collecting experirences.
the photo's were not posted for your benefit. i m requested them. i m got what he requested. you and i have talked long enough that i already knew how you'd view any photos posted. you see a handgun, you see a hunter and you see a downed cape buffalo ... and "it proves nothing".
"a 222 will kill an Elk, but it is not a good cartridge choice to select for Elk"
very true. honestly, i don't consider my.243 or .25-06 to be "good" elk cartridges. a light, small cal bullet just doesn't define "good" for me in this instance. however, my personal feelings don't lessen the reality that each hunting season, elk are cleanly taken with .243's and .25-06's. every single year. i may not like it, but i certainly can't deny the effectiveness if accurately shot. just like a .458lott in the hands of a poor marksmen will turn a cape buff hunt into a bad day. it's all about two things, near as i can tell. 1, choosing a cartridge capable of handling the job. and 2, having that cartridge in the hands of a shooter who will hit the mark. large bore handgun cartridges have proven themselves more then capable in africa and around the world. like me, elk and the small cal's above, you may not like it, but it's a fact that's already been established. loose link in the chain is the fella pulling the trigger. if he does his job, buff's down and he's on to the next animal on the list. if he doesn't, as with a poorly shot rifle cartridge, a good day of hunting may turn bad.
"How many people were injuried in the taking of the Buffalo you have posted photos of ?"
i have no reason to believe injuries were sustained while taking any of the buff in the above photos. However, you don't know . . . . do you ?
"Also, how many total Buffalo were shot to get the photo of the 1 - Buffalo in each picture you posted ?"
i have no reason to believe the buff in the above photo's aren't infact the same buff hit with the initial shot. See above.
BTW -
Yesterdays post of . . . You play with the big dogs, you get bit.
Is the same as - if you play with fire long enough, you get burnt . . . . if you hunt dangerous game long enough, you get hit.
However, as you posted earlier, "you claim you know what I know", . . . . . . . . . . . so you should have known.
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Phil
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Professional Hunter / Tanzania
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Ranch 13
Handloading Master
| Joined: | Sat Apr 1st, 2006 |
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Korey you're absolutley right. Lots of places and critters I haven't shot here yet, guess maybe at this stage of my life I'll just have to see what I decided I want to do.
I am thinking rather than go to Africa , I'ld almost just as soon go on an elk/deer combo hunt when someone else gets to worry about fixing leaky tents,firewood, the grocery list, and covering the crapper hole when it's going home time.
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TasunkaWitko
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i'm getting in on this late and have absolutely no dog in this fight and certainly no experience with the firrearms or the animals mentioned -
having said that, lyman's 47th has an extensive writeup about using a game animal's weight (average, big and really big, i think) along with other factors such as bullet calibre etc. to determine whether a cartridge would be good. it think there is some math involved and if anyone is interested i could scan/post the relevant pages and formulas.
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Ranch 13
Handloading Master
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Ron those charts and theoriums are all fun and nice, but not a one of them takes into account (nor has a way to) actual real world experiences.
There's nothing that can replace actually doing it.
Case in point. Many times you'll see someone say, well you can't use a 300 gr bullet out of a 45-70 to shoot this or that, yet that same someone will whoop and holler about how well the 454 casull works. (compare the ballistics sometime and tell me how a .452 bullet at 1600 from a handgun is better than a .458 bullet ,same speed, from a rifle and visa versa)
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PhilLozano
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TasunkaWitko wrote: i'm getting in on this late and have absolutely no dog in this fight and certainly no experience with the firrearms or the animals mentioned -
having said that, lyman's 47th has an extensive writeup about using a game animal's weight (average, big and really big, i think) along with other factors such as bullet calibre etc. to determine whether a cartridge would be good. it think there is some math involved and if anyone is interested i could scan/post the relevant pages and formulas.
Ron,
Please don't confuse us with facts ! ! ! !
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Phil
Stay out of sight and downwind
Professional Hunter / Tanzania
http://www.go-on-safari.com
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TasunkaWitko
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PhilLozano wrote: BTW, been meaning to tell you . . . . . . . nice set.
well thanks! lol.
R13 - i agree that nohting on paper beats experience, but i was under the impression (and i could be wrong) that this optimum game weight formula sought to take everything into consideration and eliminate the pitfalls of the TKO etc. i could easily be wrong on this because i don't mess with it, but the suggestions i saw for the rifles i use and the game i hunt dovetailed very well with my own experiences.
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klallen
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careful, r13. ya talk elk and deer to much it'll make us forget about this african hunting nonsense, all together.
ron, i'd like to see the info. always interested in info. ya just have to be careful with equations and their perceived importance. when equations are fabricated to highlight rifle cartridges and the bullets used to optimize their performance, they'll rarely, if ever correctly render a reasonable performance conclusion for a handgun cartridge and the bullets used that most efficiently optimize their performance. it's easy to get carried with numbers, if ya allow yourself to do so. but it's all good. let's have a look-see.
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TasunkaWitko
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>>>when equations are fabricated to highlight rifle cartridges and the bullets used to optimize their performance, they'll rarely, if ever correctly render a reasonable performance conclusion for a handgun cartridge and the bullets used that most efficiently optimize their performance. it's easy to get carried with numbers, if ya allow yourself to do so.<<<
korey, that makes sense. i should note that my interest in this formula is only casual. i've never tried it out as i know from experience that my rifels are fine for what i hunt. having said that, it could provide some interesting information or perspective. i don't know how it would translate over to handguns, but IIRC this formula was "desinged" to overcome the most common pitfalls, so who knows ~
will try to scan/post tonight. we have a new scanner and my wife seems to be the only one who can "talk" to it just right, so it might be a couple of days depending on her time frame.
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klallen
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TasunkaWitko wrote: i should note that my interest in this formula is only casual.
post it up when you can. we'll see what it shows. sounds interesting.
i'm just reminded of the equation that started this string off. kind of a penetration measurement used to identify what would and couldn't work on dangerous game. worked for a couple days on that one trying to get a frontal area value that would plug into the equation and give a reasonable result for a handgun bullet. then i saw the extremely small values they were using for rifle bullet frontal area and that explained it. the equation just wasn't fabricated to take into account the vast frontal area measurements of a flat nose cast bullet. as such, the .360" meplat of the 395 used in my casull was throwing it all out of wack. frontal areas of my .500 even worse.
all in all, the equation seemed to be a decent enough model comparing rifle cartridges. if i remember correctly though, my .358sta outperformed everything on the list save maybe the .460wbymag. and develops more energy then the .375h&h, yet i don't think they'll let me use that on dangerous game in africa, so in reality, i'm not sure what it proved. 
damn equations !!! 
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TasunkaWitko
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i never was good at math, korey, so i share your frustration with equations.
i was able to "copy" the relavent pages on our scanner and will scan them into a .pdf for posting here. i intended to do this today at work (where the .pdf scanner is) but i am pretty far under the weather this morning, so it will ahve to wait for tomorrow. i gave a brief glance at it and the information is indeed for rifles, but i didn't see anything that would say it isn't relevant for handguns.
as you know, i've pretty much stuck to PSPs throughout my shooting/hunting "career," except for the flat-points that are necessary when shooting my .30/30. they simply do what i need them to do at the velocties i do them at, so i see no reason to change at this point (although i am strongly considering a look at the "plastic-tipped" bullets for an improvement in overall accuracy and an elimination of nose distortion). i am curious and maybe your experience can shed some light on this: how much "real" effect does the frontal area of a bullet have regarding penetration? by frontal area, i am assuming that this means a combination of the caliber of the bullet and nose design. the thing is, it seems to me that any bullet, when it hits an animal, is going to squash or open up a bit, except of course for solids, and most of those even seem to "squash" or deform upon hitting the animal. regardless of nose desing, i was under the impression that sectional density (the relationship between a bullet's caliber, length and weight) was the deciding factor in penetration, except of course for how much lead is exposed, which affects expansion and penetration. i could have it all wrong, and am not claiming to have the answers. perhaps these questions belong on a separate thread titled "penetration," even - but any thoughts or comments would be apprecaited from you, or anyone.
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