| Posted: Fri Mar 6th, 2009 07:04 PM |
|
1st Post |
recoil freak
HB Pro Staff
| Joined: | Mon Jan 26th, 2009 |
| Location: | Osceola Mills PA, USA |
| Posts: | 61 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | pistol | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
I'm sure this is going to be way out of my budget but what would one pay to hunt Cape Buffalo. I have been fascinated by these ill tempered beast for years and would love to take one with a handgun.
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 6th, 2009 10:29 PM |
|
2nd Post |
PhilLozano
Board Founder
| Joined: | Mon May 23rd, 2005 |
| Location: | Arusha, Tanzania |
| Posts: | 382 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | big bore dangerous game | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
recoil freak wrote: I'm sure this is going to be way out of my budget but what would one pay to hunt Cape Buffalo. I have been fascinated by these ill tempered beast for years and would love to take one with a handgun.
A Buff hunt with a hand gun is a "stunt hunt"
____________________
Best,
Phil
Stay out of sight and downwind
Professional Hunter / Tanzania
http://www.go-on-safari.com
http://www.go-on-safari.com/talk
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 7th, 2009 05:44 PM |
|
3rd Post |
crazy2medic
Moderator
| Joined: | Thu Mar 16th, 2006 |
| Location: | Watauga, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 397 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | small bore rifle | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
I saw a film clip of a guy shooting a cape buffalo with a .458 win mag, the buffalo just turned and looked in the direction of the shot, never acted like he was hit! the only way to tell was the puff of dust off his shoulder! took three hits to drop him! I wouldn't dream of shooting a cape buffalo with a pistol!!
I think they call them black death for a reason!
Last edited on Sat Mar 7th, 2009 05:44 PM by crazy2medic
____________________
80 million armed americans! now that's peace of mind!
Teach the children quietly, for someday sons and daughters will rise up and fight while we stood still!
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 7th, 2009 06:06 PM |
|
4th Post |
klallen
Board Founder
| Joined: | Thu Feb 10th, 2005 |
| Location: | Great Falls, Montana USA |
| Posts: | 1189 |
| Photo: | [Download] | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! | | My favorite chambering is:: | Warbirdz Rule |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
what's the hunt cost?
ever since i got into big bore handguns, i've been in contact with several fellers who've hunted "all" big game, including the dangerous stuff, with their handguns. picking their brain for loads, bullet options, listening to their experiences. they didn't seem all to worked up about the prospect. they were universally clear on the need to have the cartridge loaded correctly and revolver shot accurately. hit them hard, hit them right and react to what happens afterwards. sounds pretty much like what you'd do with rifles.
i fear cape buf may be a little out of my price range, too. at this time, anyway.
____________________
A Big Mouth Don't Make A Big Man !!!
THE DUKE
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 8th, 2009 03:48 AM |
|
5th Post |
| Posted: Sun Mar 8th, 2009 04:22 AM |
|
6th Post |
klallen
Board Founder
| Joined: | Thu Feb 10th, 2005 |
| Location: | Great Falls, Montana USA |
| Posts: | 1189 |
| Photo: | [Download] | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! | | My favorite chambering is:: | Warbirdz Rule |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
how many large pistol cartridges have you actually seen used on buffalo? jus curious.
and again ... the cost?
____________________
A Big Mouth Don't Make A Big Man !!!
THE DUKE
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 8th, 2009 11:31 PM |
|
7th Post |
PhilLozano
Board Founder
| Joined: | Mon May 23rd, 2005 |
| Location: | Arusha, Tanzania |
| Posts: | 382 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | big bore dangerous game | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
klallen wrote: how many large pistol cartridges have you actually seen used on buffalo? jus curious.
None . . . . . . . . you ?
klallen wrote: the cost?
I don't know the hunting costs in all African countries, however, it is illegal in Tanzania.
____________________
Best,
Phil
Stay out of sight and downwind
Professional Hunter / Tanzania
http://www.go-on-safari.com
http://www.go-on-safari.com/talk
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 9th, 2009 03:23 AM |
|
8th Post |
klallen
Board Founder
| Joined: | Thu Feb 10th, 2005 |
| Location: | Great Falls, Montana USA |
| Posts: | 1189 |
| Photo: | [Download] | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! | | My favorite chambering is:: | Warbirdz Rule |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
PhilLozano wrote: klallen wrote: how many large pistol cartridges have you actually seen used on buffalo? jus curious.
None . . . . . . . . you ?
klallen wrote: the cost?
I don't know the hunting costs in all African countries, however, it is illegal in Tanzania.
never seen it 1st hand, p l. calling it stunt hunting and as adament as you are against it, i guess i incorrectly assumed you had 1st hand experience seeing handguns fail on the dangerous stuff. understanding tanzania handgun hunting legalities, i see now how this wouldn't be the case. no handgun hunting in tanzania, that's gotta suck.
____________________
A Big Mouth Don't Make A Big Man !!!
THE DUKE
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 9th, 2009 03:58 PM |
|
9th Post |
recoil freak
HB Pro Staff
| Joined: | Mon Jan 26th, 2009 |
| Location: | Osceola Mills PA, USA |
| Posts: | 61 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | pistol | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
My intent was not to start a big controversy over the ethics of using a hand gun to hunt Cape I was just curious. On the other hand a would be leary using the Smith 460 for such a large animal but I feel the 500 mag with the proper bullet is capable of killing any game on the planet. I shot a 400lb Black Bear two years ago with a CP 440gr she took one step and was dead before she hit the ground.
Terry
|
klallen
Board Founder
| Joined: | Thu Feb 10th, 2005 |
| Location: | Great Falls, Montana USA |
| Posts: | 1189 |
| Photo: | [Download] | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! | | My favorite chambering is:: | Warbirdz Rule |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
r f, you certainly haven't causes a controversy. i just have a little more respect for a big revolver cartridge on big bodied animals then p l does. differences of opinion don't necessarily mean controversy ... least, from my end.
my very first inquiry of dangerous game hunting with handguns highlighted the .454casull and an lbt solid at around 1500 fps on cape buffalo. i was so impressed with the report it was the driving force behind why i load my large revolver rounds as i do. latest account of events highlight the .500s&wmag and elephant. there's alot to be said for a heavy solid at revolver velocities. penetration is almost deceivingly impressive. the casull, .460 s&wmag, .475linebaugh, .500s&wmag, .500linebaugh ... these things loaded correctly deliver more then needed for the game discussed. determining factor's always the feller pulling the trigger.
i'm pretty good with my handguns but don't think i'm of a mental skill set yet to feel comfortable using a big handgun on such game but certainly don't discount what others can and have done with the combination because of my deficiencies.
____________________
A Big Mouth Don't Make A Big Man !!!
THE DUKE
|
recoil freak
HB Pro Staff
| Joined: | Mon Jan 26th, 2009 |
| Location: | Osceola Mills PA, USA |
| Posts: | 61 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | pistol | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
I have all the big bores but my all time favorite is the 454 I wouldn't be afraid to use it on anything.
|
PhilLozano
Board Founder
| Joined: | Mon May 23rd, 2005 |
| Location: | Arusha, Tanzania |
| Posts: | 382 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | big bore dangerous game | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
PhilLozano wrote: http://www.handloadersbench.com/forum51/2832.html
I can't think of one pistol cartridge that would have preformed anywhere close to this
Can you name a handgun cartridge that would ? I can't.
There are volumes of anecdotal evidence regarding minimum energy levels when hunting dangerous game.
What would be the best P.I.(penetration index) of the most powerful handgun cartridge ?
There are many cartridges that are capable of killing animals, . . . . . that does not necessarily mean they should be used.
In the case of Buffalo, I know more than a few P.H.'s that are not around because they allowed the client to try unsuitable cartridges.
However, as I said, if you can come up with a P.I. of 95 or so, I could change my view.
____________________
Best,
Phil
Stay out of sight and downwind
Professional Hunter / Tanzania
http://www.go-on-safari.com
http://www.go-on-safari.com/talk
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 10th, 2009 04:08 AM |
|
13th Post |
klallen
Board Founder
| Joined: | Thu Feb 10th, 2005 |
| Location: | Great Falls, Montana USA |
| Posts: | 1189 |
| Photo: | [Download] | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! | | My favorite chambering is:: | Warbirdz Rule |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
PhilLozano wrote: However, as I said, if you can come up with a P.I. of 95 or so, I could change my view.
the irrelavence of a P. I. number identifying an adaquate dangerous game cartridge is kinda evident when ya realize that pretty much any small cartridge from the 7-08 up through the .358sta (and everything in between) will surpass your desired magical number of 95 P.I., and most breaking 100 (.30-06), lots 140 (.338winmag) and even 150 (358sta). kinda shows the deception or irrelavence of the number unto itself when you see the good ole '06 matching .470 capstick values and only being slightly behind the giant .577 tyrannosaur.
but for example sake though, assuming there's any importance to such a number, i'll need your assistance. this is the equation i found for p. i. :
(kinetic energy / frontal area of bullet) x sectional density = P. I.
this is the good col. alphin's formula to calculate the number. is this your understanding, as well? if so, corresponding data for a small revolver round like my .454casull :
- 1720# KE
- .360" meplat
- .277 s d
plugging these numbers into the formula don't jive in the numbers :
(1720 / .360) x .277 = 1323.5
i'm suspecting the problem lies in the number used for the frontal area of the bullet. let me know how you calculate things and we can work up some numbers for the .500s&wmag, too.
____________________
A Big Mouth Don't Make A Big Man !!!
THE DUKE
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 10th, 2009 05:21 AM |
|
14th Post |
klallen
Board Founder
| Joined: | Thu Feb 10th, 2005 |
| Location: | Great Falls, Montana USA |
| Posts: | 1189 |
| Photo: | [Download] | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! | | My favorite chambering is:: | Warbirdz Rule |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
generating that "frontal area of the bullet" number is where we're running into issues.
consider, information i have found with P. I. numbers generated for several cartridges from a chart on the www look like such for the .416 rigby, as an example.
410 gr. bullet at 2400 fps, a sectional density of .338 and a P. I. value of 131 for the cartridge.
generating an energy number using bullet weight and velocity we get 5245#.
so plugging what we know into the equation, we get :
(5245 KE / frontal area of the bullet) x .338 SD = 131 P. I.
so doing a little backwards math, we get :
(5245 KE / 13.5335) x .338 = 131 P. I. (rounded number)
red numbers the fly in the ointment. it isn't mm, as that'd equal .533" aprox. larger frontal area value then the .416 diameter itself. hmmmmmm.
____________________
A Big Mouth Don't Make A Big Man !!!
THE DUKE
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 11th, 2009 01:30 AM |
|
15th Post |
PhilLozano
Board Founder
| Joined: | Mon May 23rd, 2005 |
| Location: | Arusha, Tanzania |
| Posts: | 382 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | big bore dangerous game | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
The P.I. for the cartridges you listed, very well could be accurate (I'm not going to do the math).
However, I thought we were speaking of cartridges adequate for Buffalo and/or dangerous game. That would assume bullets with adequate diameter.
And those you listed are inadequate or illegal to use.
The 375 H&H, is the legal minimum in most African countries.
By your prvious post, the velocity of the 454 is 1500 fps (I don't have a clue what it is). I can tell you the P.I. is not close to the 95 mentioned.
With a velocity of 1500 fps, the bullet would have to weigh in excess of 1,000 grains to approach a P.I. of 95.
If you look at Art's book again, have a look the suggestions on cartridges recommended for DG.
Any comments on how the 454 would have preformed vs the rifle cartridges used in the link I posted ?
____________________
Best,
Phil
Stay out of sight and downwind
Professional Hunter / Tanzania
http://www.go-on-safari.com
http://www.go-on-safari.com/talk
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 11th, 2009 03:15 AM |
|
16th Post |
klallen
Board Founder
| Joined: | Thu Feb 10th, 2005 |
| Location: | Great Falls, Montana USA |
| Posts: | 1189 |
| Photo: | [Download] | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! | | My favorite chambering is:: | Warbirdz Rule |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
so you're using a different formula for P.I. ? i gave you the numbers you needed to calculate P. I. for the .454casull and a 395 gr. lbt solid at 1400 fps, .277 S D , and a frontal area (in inches) of the bullet (.360).
now, do me the math, if you could please. if the .454casull isn't close to 95 P. I., i'm ok with that. just show me, by formula, what it is.
i'm starting to think you're not going to be able to do it and get any meaningful comparison results between handgun and rifle simply because of the bullets used in each. i think problems we'll run into using this formula for handguns is that it was developed for rifles and their relatively small frontal ares of the round nose profile, typical of dangerous game solids. you use a wfn or wln bullet of a large handgun caliber class, and the frontal area is going to be massive, in comparison.
regarding your cape story, from the reports i've heard, i think any of the heavy weight solid cast from a .454casull, .460s&w, .475line, .500s&w or .500line would hit the hell out of that buffalo. would he have gone down in fewer hits ... who can say. you certainly can't say it wouldn't have. we'd just be speculating.
buffalo bore makes handgun ammo catering dangerous game handgun hunters specifically. penetration measured in feet isn't a rarity for these properly loaded handgun cartridges ... it's the norm.
kinda interesting, over on their site theyhave a write-up of a fella with his cape buffalo story. first two hits did the killing damage. following chest impacts kinda tired things up and a spine shot as the final finisher. sounded like an exciting hunt. his bullet and cartridge ... a 325 lbt solid and a .45colt.
yeah, in the right hands, i believe without question, a .454casull would perform very well on cape buffalo.
____________________
A Big Mouth Don't Make A Big Man !!!
THE DUKE
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 11th, 2009 03:36 AM |
|
17th Post |
PhilLozano
Board Founder
| Joined: | Mon May 23rd, 2005 |
| Location: | Arusha, Tanzania |
| Posts: | 382 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | big bore dangerous game | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
klallen wrote: so you're using a different formula for P.I. ? i gave you the numbers you needed to calculate P. I. for the .454casull and a 395 gr. lbt solid at 1400 fps, .277 S D , and a frontal area (in inches) of the bullet (.360).
A 60 cal. 900 grain bullet at 1950 fps does not have a 95 P.I.
So whatever the weight of the pistol bullet and frontal area, it won't be heavy enough, or have a large enough diameter, nor be moving fast enough to get close to 95.
That Buffalo in the link, was hit with 5,000 ft. lbs of energy, each time it took a bullet. I doubt ANY handgun cartridge develops anything near that amount of energy.
I am referring to the P.I. formula in 'Any Shot You Want'
I have figured out the P.I. on the cartridges I use, out of curiosity.
IMO, handguns have no place on a Buffalo hunt, so I don't have much interest in figuring out what the P.I. would be. I know it would be inadequate, whatever it turned out to be.
I don't know, however, would guess it would be 60 to 70
Last edited on Wed Mar 11th, 2009 03:43 AM by PhilLozano
____________________
Best,
Phil
Stay out of sight and downwind
Professional Hunter / Tanzania
http://www.go-on-safari.com
http://www.go-on-safari.com/talk
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 11th, 2009 03:50 AM |
|
18th Post |
klallen
Board Founder
| Joined: | Thu Feb 10th, 2005 |
| Location: | Great Falls, Montana USA |
| Posts: | 1189 |
| Photo: | [Download] | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! | | My favorite chambering is:: | Warbirdz Rule |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
"I have figured out the P.I. on the cartridges I use, out of curiosity."
perfect. how did you calculate a figure for the frontal area of the rn solids used in your rifle cartridges?
____________________
A Big Mouth Don't Make A Big Man !!!
THE DUKE
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 11th, 2009 04:10 AM |
|
19th Post |
| Posted: Wed Mar 11th, 2009 04:56 AM |
|
20th Post |
klallen
Board Founder
| Joined: | Thu Feb 10th, 2005 |
| Location: | Great Falls, Montana USA |
| Posts: | 1189 |
| Photo: | [Download] | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! | | My favorite chambering is:: | Warbirdz Rule |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
thumbed through the book real quick. must be page 165. and looking at the numbers there kinda reinforces what i've been hinting through most of this string. this P. I. formula is designed specifically for round nose rifle bullet comparisons. it takes no characteristics of a flat nose handgun bullet into consideration. it's simply useless in an affort to manufacture an apples to apples comparison.
even using the basic formula for frontal area :
f a = pi (3.1416) x (radius)2
again, it's a formula designed to calculate numbers specific to rifle bullets, period. using a little common sense, it's pretty easy to see how such a formula (for round nose bullets) simply couldn't be transferable over to bullet with a large, flat nose characteristic.
so, we've wasted a whole hell of a lot of time talking about P. I. as if it means something when reality is it's got no relavence to handgun bullets in the least.
____________________
A Big Mouth Don't Make A Big Man !!!
THE DUKE
|
| Current time is 11:05 AM | Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6   |
|
