| Posted: Sat Oct 15th, 2005 01:16 PM |
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21st Post |
Handgunr
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Leonard,
I can't say that I don't agree with you on some points....especially the .22-250, as I have one and use it quite often. But if you read between the lines on what I was trying to say in my post, you'll realize that my whole point based on a caliber choice was distance and it's use.
This depends a lot on the geographical location, as well as the user's hunting styles.
My thought's aren't the "be all & end all" of it, but I assign minimum's & maximum's to my guns based on their killability and destructiveness using mostly Hornady VMax's.
The minimum's & maximum's I was referring to were the distances in question.
I guess the phrase "common ranges" would be the thought of choice when trying to decide on the gun and bullet choice. Also, those ranges naturally are dictated by your hunting locale.
My average coyote, or fox shot probably is around 200yds.....some at 400, a few in closer, but as an average.....200 maybe.
I guess if you felt the need to take a larger caliber gun that would be your decision, or choice, but it isn't always necessary. Up here in the northeast, our coyotes, at this point, are probably some of the largest in the states. They have virtually, no competition for food, or territory, so they get big.
I've killed them at the ranges you mentioned were beyond the workings of the .223, and if the shot was placed well, they drop. Now I'm not touting that the .223 is any .22-250, or 220 Swift, and I believe that it's outer limits run around 300yds. (plus or minus) as well.
If you're a student or believer of the "pass though school", more power to you. Hopefully you like to sew.............I don't.
I've seen the dogs hit with pass through shots, and if you're moderately versed about ballistics, the optimum, or "Holy Grail" of load development is when your bullet dumps it's total energy within the target. Not always possible, depending on distances, but as an average, it can be attainable almost 99% of the time at anything over 100-150yds.
To do that, it has to be somewhat frangible. Using match bullets for their accuracy, might be a good choice to get the shot to the target, but when it get's there, performance is poor. Some softpoint, non-match bullets, touted as hunting bullets, will only mushroom marginally, still passing through the animal and creating a massive exit wound.
Some shooters still use FMJ bullets, and they too will give you pass throughs with smaller exits, and in many cases, a lost dog.
Like I mentioned above, my hunting partner who shot the coyote with his .243 at 110yds., he was using Sierra Match bullets as well. His (well placed) pass through shot was one of the most devastating exits I have seen, yet that dog ran a good 150yds before it dropped. All that time with 5lbs. of it's entrails hanging out.
All bullets are not created equal....we all know, but choosing one that best matches the target intended (performance wise), within the caliber of choice and the velocities obtainable, is really the best way to go. Striving for a bullet that consistently makes it's way into the vitals, and then detonates, or destructs, is the most optimum performance that you can ask for.
Each bullet design has it's "sweet spot" when it comes to velocity. One reason why Sierra prints their bullet velocity parameters. Matching your load velocity at those given ranges, within the suggested bullet's workable velocity boundries gives you the best performance possible.
Regarding the suggestion of the .223.......it was mainly based on prairie dog shooting, and what I've heard & read time and time again....the guns get hot from too much shooting. At the amount of heat the .22-250 & 220 Swift generate, and knowing that their biggest problem regarding barrel erosion is heat, they'd be poor choices for fast and long shooting in such situations.
Shooting them, as fast & furious as I've heard some talk, the normal .22-250, or 220 Swift wouldn't last 10 minutes (or less) before they'd be smokin' hot.
We've had local fella's from up here go out west on prairie dog hunts and take several rifles with them. They claim that the .223 performs very well under those conditions, and although they take their larger .22's, they get too hot too quick for long sessions.
In NY we have a rimfire law that forces us to use "any rimfire cartridge" during open deer season. Insane for some, but that's NY for you. Anyway, it's during the optimum pelt season so we hunt them regardless. Considering the issues mentioned on the .223, we drop coyotes and fox with the .22 Mag's and .17HMR's on out to 125-150yds regularly, a little stretch for them, but it's being done.
I guess my initial question;
"When is enough gun at longer ranges, too much gun at shorter ones ?"
......can be looked at from the opposite perspective;
"When is enough gun at shorter ranges, not enough at longer ones ?"
It's up to the individual to pick the best middle ground for them. If the .22-250 is a little too much, what other options does he have towards a lesser cartridge ?
The best option is to buy several guns........which I guess were ALL in agreement with.......
Bob
Last edited on Sat Oct 15th, 2005 01:35 PM by Handgunr
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15th, 2005 04:06 PM |
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22nd Post |
TwoBeards
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Thanks Leonard after reading everyones advice I seriously thought long and hard about my question and realized that 400 yards is close to a 1/4 mile and shooting anything at that distance would be a real challenge for me. Most of the prairie dogs that I have shot have been well under 300 yards and that was useing a spotting scope to find em first. The best shot I have made was on a white tail doe at 242 yards (range finder verified) and a I split her heart in 3 pieces and I felt very confident in being able to make a clean kill as with all my practiceing at a 200 yard range and that shot was with a Mossberg 100 ATR in .270 cal. So the thought of owning a rifle that could take a coyote at 400 yards easily is more of a fascination but a reality I want to make happen. I am disabled so I have more time on my hands than I really like so I am at the range 3 to 4 days a week testing loads and practicing all year long until it gets to cold. My life is shooting/hunting but my income is so limited that I cant afford to go and buy all the rifles I want so I try to find a multi use rifle and go with that. I have a Savage 111F in 7mm Rem Mag That I finally found the sweet spot on so now I want to get a high powered smaller caliber rifle as the 7mm Mag is to much for smaller game. Since I joined HB I have become an accuracy nut so my milsurps dont really fit the bill I want a rifle capable of superb accuracy if I do my part. There again I am forced to go with a factory gun as I cannot afford to buy a custom and dont have the knowledge or skills to build one. I really want a 220 swift but they are over a grand so I am going to settle for a 22-250. Also if I can get the funds I will pick up a 223 bolt action. So maybe buying both I can have what I want Again I thank you all for your advice!!!! Jimmy
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15th, 2005 04:35 PM |
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23rd Post |
Handgunr
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2 beards.....
Probably the best "all around choice" anyway.......might I suggest the Encore ?
My .22-250 is a bolt Rem VSSF, but my .223 is a BB 24" Encore. Both are very accurate and fun to shoot.....
Oh yeah....the disability thing......me too....retired me way too early....well, more time for guns & stuff....gotta find some purpose in life or you'll curl up & die......
Take care,
Bob
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15th, 2005 06:25 PM |
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24th Post |
Leonard
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I'm retired, about 17 months ago, and the past two weeks, suffering from severe back pain, worst I have ever experienced.
But, getting back to the pass through vs. blow up inside discussion, I admit to being a card carrying charter member of the "pass through club". It does not register with me about a "minimum distance" for any suitable predator cartridge? I like consistant performance with a heavy bullet, a complete pass-through, with a quarter or(?) half dollar size exit....if anybody can remember what a half dollar looks like?
Blowing up inside without an exit is a lot harder to do in reality, than in theory. IF you can limit your shots to a certain range, not to be exceeded, in either direction, then there are the sudden movements where a behind the shoulder (ribcage) point of aim becomes a splash wound on the shoulder joint. A coyote can run a long ways on three legs.
In everything I do, I expect an entrance and an exit. I killed a kudu with a 6mm Remington and a 100 grain Sierra spitzer. Yes, he ran three hundred yards through the thorn, and it took over an hour to locate, but it was a complete pass-through, and that helped a lot with the blood spots.
Some people attempt the "stay inside" solution, but it is never 100 percent, in my experience. Pass-throughs can be made to be near perfect, very reliable, and in my opinion, kill just as well, and in most cases, with a proper placement, better. With a bad hit on a moving animal, a pass-through will still anchor more game than a bullet that blows up inside.
Anyway, this amounts to a Ford/Chevy argument. Nobody will probably change their views, one way or the other.
Good hunting. LB
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16th, 2005 12:24 AM |
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25th Post |
Handgunr
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Leonard,
I've strived not to get pass through's on animals where I wanted to save their pelts, and the bullets that have dumped their energy and didn't exit, dropped those animals right on the spot with little or no movement.
What I meant by a minimum distance, was basically referring to a high energy smokin' hot round that'll instantly drop a dog out at 4-500yds. more times than not, will totally disintegrate the same animal inside of, let's say, 100yds. or so.
How much is enough, too much, or too little ?
This was what I was looking at when the question was asked...opinions differ.
I respect your opinion, and if it works for you great.
Although I have had many instances of an opposite result........
...........let's agree to disagree here.........
....by the way my friend...........I like Chevy's
Take careLast edited on Sun Oct 16th, 2005 12:40 AM by Handgunr
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16th, 2005 04:52 AM |
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26th Post |
Leonard
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Well, I (for sure) don't drive a Ford! Actually, I have a Dodge PU and a Nissan Titan, and vote Republican.
But, we can agree to disagree, that's fine. I don't hunt fur, so I don't care if I ruin a hide. But, that is a very misunderstood situation; ruining a hide can be done with a seventeen, or any chambering, depending on the bullet used.
As a for instance, I have probably killed well over 500 coyotes with a 22-250 Ackley and (at least) twice that number with a 220 Swift. The Swift does considerable damage with 55 grain bullets, no doubt, but in the Ackley, I use a 65 grain bullet that dumps them at extended range and believe it or not, on close in shots, it just drives through with a very small exit....about an inch, or so. Very, very little difference, long range, or short. I wouldn't have believed it either, but that's what I see. I cannot tell you how much I love the performance I get from that gun. Of course, a spinal hit will lay the whole back open; but with proper placement, at ANY range, I get VERY little damage. On the outside, that is. Inside, bloodshot everywhere.
Good hunting. LB
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16th, 2005 05:30 PM |
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27th Post |
Handgunr
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..........see there you go Leonard........I vote republican......I drive a Dodge 1500 4X4 extended as well........small world...
Probably one of the reasons you get close range pass throughs with that 65gr. bullet out of the 220 Swift is due to the velocity being so high and the bullet really doesn't have time to react much. I get that when I use a regular softpoint out of my guns. A ballistic, or polymer tipped bullet isn't as forgiving close up. But I chose them based on the "common ranges" that I encounter fox & coyotes.
Most of the time, in the past, the hides we took that got ruined are when we opted to hunt the long potato fields nearby that range out to 600yds or so. We'd take larger calibers like a .243, .270, 7mm08, or a .308, using them to make up for the loss of energy at the longer ranges, or in anticipation of a longer shot.
Usually, this didn't happen as the coyotes would skirt the woods, getting as close to us as possible before they broke cover out into the field heading to our spot.
The story of my buddy's .243 was the last straw, and we've quit doing that since.....but his use of the Sierra Match bullet also ceased. He now uses Vmax's, Nosler BT's, or Sierra BK's.
Also, we both hunt chucks together on the "off season", and he uses a .17 Rem almost exclusively. He loves the round. On any of the hundreds of rounds I've watched him shoot at a woodchuck, mind you, I've never seen a pass through shot on a one. Mostly they just drop flat.......no tail rise, no twitch, nothing.
It seems that their neurological reactions to the hit are nil. Besides all that, we have a hardtime trying to find the entrance holes more times than not.
With my .223 and .22-250's, I almost always get a tail stand or something. Even when you know their dead.
The last coyote I shot up near Batavia NY last season, came out at dusk approx. 200-210 yds. and I tagged him a tad higher than dead center in the rib cage on a braodside shot. No exit, and after a quick flop, he lay motionless. When I picked him off the ground, the sound was like shaking a hot water bottle......totally liquidous inside.
I like that kind of performance, both from a cartridge, and the bullet......but that's just me.
(.....speaking of disabilities the other day)......I gotta head out....my cervical spine is playing hell with me and trying to type is a chore.
Take care,
Bob Last edited on Sun Oct 16th, 2005 05:39 PM by Handgunr
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16th, 2005 06:52 PM |
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28th Post |
Leonard
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My Dodge is a 1974 short wheelbase ½ ton 360 4X4 with 450,000 miles on it. The decision to dedicate a vehicle exclusively to hunting was a release of anxiety, I modify the hell out of it, don't care what it looks like but the wife hates it and won't ride in it.
That 65 grain bullet is only used in the 22-250 Ackley. I never claimed that either of my Swifts were anything but hide rippers,but it wouldn't make any difference to me if they exited cleanly, as the 65s do in the Ackley. But, that's my load, as long as it puts them down, bang/flop, that's fine with me. The biggest reason I want a hammer is because at night, you can waste a lot of time searching for an animal in the dark with a flashlight. I expect them to be laying there, where I last saw then when they dropped out of sight.
In point of fact, I won't use any bullet that doesn't meet my terminal performance expectations. Here is where we have agreed to disagree, but I will not use a bullet that doesn't exit. Goes hand in hand with my belief that light bullets are not suitable for coyotes, particularly in .224. I have had good results with a few light bullets in 6MM, but only use them at moderate ranges.
Always nice to read about other theories, occasionally some of it rubs off. I can think of at least two instances where I did something completely out of character. One was buying a 223Ackley, which I don't really consider powerful enough, for my hunting. The other was developing a load for a 75 grain VMax in my 25'06Ackley, when I am a firm believer in 100 grain bullets for everything. That turned into a happy discovery of the most accurate bullet, even if it wasn't too effective past 400 yards.
See, an old dog can learn new tricks. 
Good hunting. LB
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