| Posted: Wed Sep 2nd, 2009 04:26 AM |
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oldbikewrench
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Howdy folks. I have a Lee Enfield No1 MkIII that was converted to .45-70 Government by Navy Arms, my second actually. What a fun gun to shoot. SAAMI pressure for the .45-70 is 28,000 MAP and the .303 British is 49,000 MAP.
Do you suppose I could pep it up a little above factory Remington ammo? Fellow I talked to at Hornady believes that their 325 GR FTX LEVERevolution would be alright in that action.
What do you folks think?
Thanks!
____________________
Enfields Eddystones & Mausers oh my!
Love your neighbor as yourself.'...Mark12:31
He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke22:36
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| Posted: Wed Sep 2nd, 2009 06:09 AM |
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leadhead
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Hornady lists 3 loading pressures in their manual those for trapdoor, those for modern actions like marlin 1895 and even higher pressure for the ruger 1 which are built like a tank. I think if you went with the modern load pressure and didnt make it too hot should be just fine.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 2nd, 2009 12:53 PM |
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ghrit
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I guess I'd like to know if the conversion involved making the chamber walls thinner. If not, you should be good to go.
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| Posted: Thu Sep 3rd, 2009 03:23 AM |
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oldbikewrench
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Thanks for the replies! Sure my rifle can easily handle the Trap Door loads but what about the 1895 Marlin loads? Something in between maybe?
The barrel is completely new, this info is right from Navy Arms/Gibbs Rifle Company:
Built on the proven No. IMKIII action, the Frontier™ Carbine offers .45-70 knockdown power in a short, powerful sporting carbine. Each Frontier Carbine starts out as a rugged, reliable No. IMKIII action. It is then remanufactured and rebarreled with a precision button rifled barrel to exacting standards. A modern front sight has been added, along with a Williams rear sight. The blued barreled action is then hand fitted to a newly finished hardwood stock. The result is a fast handling carbine, ideal for deep woods and brush hunting, with the knockdown power to tackle anything on four legs in North America. Will accept all No. IMKIII Enfield “non gunsmitihing” type mounts. Weight - 8-1/2 lbs. , Bbl Length - 21”, OAL 40”, Cal - .45-70 Government.
Though it is now discontinued. The folks at Navy Arms are nice and good to talk to but they have no info about how hot rifle can be loaded. I am not wanting to load it to Ruger #1 specs.
Frank de Haas/Wayne van Zwolls' book "Bolt Action Rifles" has a lot of good info but does not help much in what I am after.
____________________
Enfields Eddystones & Mausers oh my!
Love your neighbor as yourself.'...Mark12:31
He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke22:36
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| Posted: Fri Sep 4th, 2009 01:02 AM |
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wheezengeezer
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It should at least handle Marlin 1895 pressures.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 4th, 2009 02:40 AM |
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oldbikewrench
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Thank you wheezengeezer.
As it turns out one of my best and most trusted friends has the same rifle/model. He has loaded his up past 1895 Marlin loads. He knows me pretty good and let me know that I wouldn't much care to go any hotter. So now let the games begin!!!
____________________
Enfields Eddystones & Mausers oh my!
Love your neighbor as yourself.'...Mark12:31
He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke22:36
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| Posted: Wed Oct 7th, 2009 04:13 PM |
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Rapier
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A word of caution on the 45-70 bolt action rifle, as I own two Siamese Mauser guns myself. Do not look for the traditional pressure signs while loading the 45-70 and increasing the loads. You will not see a flat primer using regular large capacity style powders as the case will only hold so much powder and you can easily reach max capacity, even compressed, way before you reach a max pressure indication.
The 45-70 in a bolt gun is a rompin, stomping thing, indeed, at top end. Try 2015 BR and Reloader #7. A nice easy load for a bolt gun is 59 gr of 2015 BR under a 300gr HP Remington bulk bullet. It is accurate and still has a push recoil in my guns. It is also my starting load.
Best,
Ed
____________________
"who can afford so to cover his country with troops for its defense as that 10,000 men descending from the clouds might not in many places do an infinite deal of mischief before a force could be brought together to repel them?" Franklin
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| Posted: Wed Oct 7th, 2009 07:55 PM |
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fryboy
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i have to keep in mind that the lee enfield isnt exactly a "robust action" known for stretching when hot rodded, the taoered case design and the low pressure cordite loads used by the british army were usually no problem but there's the rub ,how old is the original reciever ? it could actually be so old as to be from the days of black powder IMO it was built and sold in 45/70 because 99.9% of the 45/70 ammo made is loaded to trap door levels ( and saami specs i mite add) hence why we have the 450 marlin ,i also tend to err on the side of safety what u do tho is entirely up to u
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| Posted: Thu Oct 8th, 2009 10:30 PM |
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Rapier
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Lets see, where to start? well, first off the actions used to make the rifles by Navy Arms were No1 MKIII actions. The 1-MK III was adopted by the british Army in 1907 so were never BP actions or guns.
While the 303 cartridge is a 49-50K case, it has nothing to do with the action itself. The Brits are funny buggers they insist on proofing every gun in the country, not just ever model of gun, but, each and every gun. Every 1-MKIII is proofed to 65K according to the documents I have read on the 1-MKIII. It is not robust but it is pretty stout.
The 1-MKIII is not the strongest action for conversion by any means. That "honor" falls to the Siamese Mauser which is a late 98 Design built under contract by Arisaka before WWII.
SAMMI specs on old cartridges are at best deceptive. They are specificly designed to provide a set of standards for factory loads that would be safe in any firearm ever produced for the cartridge. The 45-70 was chambered in some truly junk guns. Do not get confused with safe in a trap door and safe in a bolt action.
I own not one but several Marlin big bore lever guns and have owned Marlin lever guns since 1969 when I bought my first 444, new in the box. I do not buy factory ammo. The weakest modern big bore lever action made today is the Marlin. It is in no way comparable to the 1-MKIII bolt action as to strength. Sorry, but I am a Marlin guy and the truth is the truth.
The 450 Marlin was created to escape the SAMMI specs for the 45-70, and this is quoted as fact by several gun writers at the time of introduction. A reloader can simply load the 45-70 to the 450 Marlin performance and this is quoted as fact time and time again. But Marlin by contract, can not advertise a different spec for their guns, but SAMMI specs. The 450 Marlin had no specs as a new cartridge. Neither the case or the Marlin gun will be in jepordy when the 45-70 is loaded to 450 Marlin performance. That, is a fact and explains why the 450 Marlin has died a slow lengering death. This was not a good comparison.
OK, last answer, the 45-70 conversions were made, as I understand the process, because it was done before for or by the Indian Army. They converted a number of 1-MKIII guns to 45-70 for close in fighting as jungle carbines. I have no idea who or what they intended on shooting, but obviously it would be a one shot stop if it were the Japanese.
Best,
Ed
PS I am very sure most of this info is on the net somewhere, all you need do is search it up.
____________________
"who can afford so to cover his country with troops for its defense as that 10,000 men descending from the clouds might not in many places do an infinite deal of mischief before a force could be brought together to repel them?" Franklin
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fryboy
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end result and best question ...why do they not sell hi pressure 45-70 loads( no matter what u want to cram in ur gun ?)
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Rockydog
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fryboy wrote: end result and best question ...why do they not sell hi pressure 45-70 loads( no matter what u want to cram in ur gun ?)
Because there are enough old Damascus shotguns and modern magnum shotshells left out there yet to provide shooters their quota of the Darwin effect without introducing heavy 45-70 loads to trapdoor Springfield shooters.
Seriously, I think there are heavy 45-70 loads available from Buffalo Bore and others. RD
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fryboy
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there are a few,it does boil down to manufacturers covering thier own uh huhs, if u load a hot load and the gun goes boom in the wrong way ur use of reloads nulls both their warranty as well as any lawsuits against them ,how hot would i push that particular gun ? i wouldnt ,what some one else decides to do is entirely up to them and i accept no responsibility for another's actions ,alot of 45-70's will stand a higher loading than factory sells yet if one looks even the loads for my encore and contender in the books is listed at trapdoor velocities tho undoubtedly it will stand higher pressure,the worse that could happen would be after i die some one loads my warmer 45-70's in a trapdoor but by then i'd be beyond suing lolz but as long as i'm alive i urge everyone to err on the side of safety , nothing personal... or i could just do like my buddy tells everyone just pack the case full of bullseye and the heaviest bullet u can find and touch it off
edit for add....
while i take full responsibilty for my actions will everyone else do the same ? if a worst case scenario happened and that nice new conversion did let go and maimed or killed the guy shooting at the next bench how would u feel ? would u accept the responsiblity of providing for his widow in a worst case scenario ? lil thoughts but very valid ones
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Rockydog
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Fryboy wrote "the worse that could happen would be after i die some one loads my warmer 45-70's in a trapdoor"
Fryboy, I agree. In my case it would be my son or grandsons or perhaps a close friend or two whom I intend to leave some shooting stuff to. I still recall someone on a site who talked of putting "poison" (extremely overloaded) rounds in his arsenal to pay back anyone who stole his stuff. The danger to members of his family or other innocents was of no concern to him when I pointed this out. Where has common sense gone? RD
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Rapier
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Just trying to help with understanding the Contender VS the Encore, VS other guns. I am an old, old silhouette shooter and bought my first Contender in 1971, a 357 Mag. I sold my last Contenders to the Brazilian national silhouette team, many frames and many barrels. I replaced the TCs with XLs and BFs.
The Contender is well known to be an at best 50K action, with smaller based cartridges. When you increase the head diameter of a cartridge in the Contender and maintain the 50K pressures, the torque created will twist the action. I lost my 3 didget serial number action to the 357 Harrett, 10 inch. The action lasted about 500 rounds before the muzzle started moving to about .125 inchs, side to side. So the Contender would take the pressures of a hot 45-70 without an explosion, but it would in short order twist out of tolerance. This is an inherant problem with the Contender that led to the Contender II and the Encore. TC introduced the Harrett and then started replacing frames hand over fist, the problem became an economic problem.
The Encore, is a totaly different critter. The cartridges cambered in the Encore illustrate that a hot 45-70 would be no problem in the Encore. Without getting into frame specs at all; if the Encore is factory available in 300 Win Mag, the 45-70, hot loaded, is simply a walk in the park compared to the 300 Winny.
To add a bit of humor to this, I saw a young butter bar, 2nd Lt, at our range show up with a 14 inch Encore in 30-06. The dealer sold him 4 boxes of 180 gr Remington factory rounds to shoot in his new in the box Encore. As the range master, I decided to keep an eye on him so I walked over to the off line rail and stood directly behind him, sitting at the bench. The line was empty save him at the time. The first round went down range and he just sat there in obvious shock. He put the gun down, looked around, saw no one and shook his hand. Ouch, that hurt. Then he chambered another round, bang, he stood up, laid the gun on the bench and went into his very best my hand hurts dance. Still he had not seen me. He shot the gun yet one more time, I guess expecting another result. By that time I could no longer see, the tears were flowing from laughing so long and so hard. Next day the gun was in the case at the dealers with a box of ammo, with 3 spent rounds.
Best,
Ed
PS Congratulations on an exchange of ideas without one personal attack or flame. This is exactly as a site should be, for shooters.
____________________
"who can afford so to cover his country with troops for its defense as that 10,000 men descending from the clouds might not in many places do an infinite deal of mischief before a force could be brought together to repel them?" Franklin
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fryboy
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i've seen that dance lolz( my oldest nephew among others) i enjoy the tc platform ( save all the g-2 as i dont own one) recoil is a funny thing ..the wrong grip ( both the shooter's and the gun's ) can scare a person away and understandably so , i love both the herret's ( i have both)but i doubt that i'd ever shoot them with the factory wood,the newer grip,before they went to the g-2, with the rubber insert on the back was a much needed improvement !and oddly enough i didnt think i'd like the rounded gripper pachmyer as much as the classic ones, i was wrong, and then years later i found mike b's page and saw what he did to his wood grip ,it made sense,
i also i believe i have read something written from u before , ( the brazilian team and the contenders was the give away )now if i can just shake my mind and recall which rag it was in and find it in my dusty pile lolz
i will always urge on the side of safety and caution after all we want u safe( and here typing )i would never tell or ask another man to do something that i myself would not do tho i have ran across those that would and then snicker while the other person did, heavy hittin handguns are one thing personal safety is quite another,and even should i choose to disregard my own safety do i have that right for those around me ? IMO no i do not ,i've seen guns blow and have seen many more that have blown when i wasnt there to see it ,i hope none of us ever see one again !
for those wishing more info on the topic of the smle the wiki has a decent write up
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee-Enfield
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(happy shootin'-the best way to get empty brass!)
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