| Posted: Fri Jul 24th, 2009 10:07 PM |
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Ky Greg
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I shot my first cast bullets out of my 44 mag yesterday evening and when I was cleaning it afterwards there was quite a bit of lead shards almost like glitter on the cleaning cloth. I was shooting starting load level powder charges and since this was my first time shooting CB's that I cast myself, I'm wondering if I did something wrong.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24th, 2009 10:58 PM |
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Slingshot
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Hello,
could be a couple of things. What did you size the bullets to after casting? What lube are you using? If your bullets are to soft they sometimes will "fall apart" when fired.
I get that sometimes in my 38 special loads if they are light loads.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24th, 2009 11:16 PM |
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miestro_jerry
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I have that problems with some light loads, but also with softer bullets or CBs without GCs.
Sizing to your chamber and barrel is critical, you may want to slug your barrel to see what your bullets needs to be sized, plus what lubes are used on your CBs this is rather important.
There is a BUT to this situation in a couple of rifles I get some strong leading with bullets that I over sized, but the rifle shoots more accurately with these oversized bullets.
Jerry
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24th, 2009 11:21 PM |
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Paul B
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Welcome to the world of cast bullets and leaded barrels. Your condition may or may not be normal, but I don't think you did much of anything wrong.
Run yourself down to Walmart of some other cheapie place and by about a dozen lead sinkers that will be a bit larger than the bore and cylinder mouths of your handgun. These will be one of the tools we will use to figure out your problem. I'll come back to this in a minute.
What type of metal are you using to make your bullets? Pure lead? Wheel weights? Other?
Were the slivers of lead coming from the breech end of the barrel or mostly from the muzzle end of the gun? From the breech end the bullets are too small in diameter. If nearer the muzzle your bullet lube is running out of gas.
OK, let's get to the nitty gritty of the situation. What diameter did you size the bullets to? This could be a critical part of the problem if improperly sized. Won't hurt much other than accuracy will go totally to hell once the leading build up badly enough. That leading can be the source of many nasty words and expeltive until it's long gone.
Now we come to those fishing sinkers which usually are a usually pretty soft alloy of lead and even pure lead. Clamp the gun in a Padded vice and oil the bore well. With a plastic mallet, place a sinker against the muzzle and drive it into the bore until it's flush with the end of the barrel. Ust a proper sized wood dowel and with the dowel against the sinker, use the mallet and dowel to drive the sinker through the barrel and out the other side. Try to catch the bullet so that it does not fall and be deformed.If your home made bullets are soft enough, you can substitue those for the sinkers, but usually the sinkers are easier to drive through. Do that two times with two different sinkers. Measure the groove diameter of the barrel. (outside diameter of the slugged sinker) For simplicity's sake and this explanation, we'll say the groove diameter is .430". OK? Now, do the same thing, only this time you'll be driving the sinkers through the cylinder from the rear. Be care to mark each slug to tell which cylinder hole it went through. Measure the diameter of each slug from each of the separate cylinder holes. Perfection would be if the cylinder throats are at least .001" larger than the groove diameter of the bore. If they are the same, then accuracy and leading could be a problem, If the cylinder throats are smaller, accuracy can suck big time as the barrel rapidly leads up. If the throat is smaller than the groove diameter. then that bullet is gonna rattle from side to side leaving chunks of lead sticking to the rifling od that barrel. If you don't have a micrometer of caliper, go to any machinist's shop and they'll probably do the measuring for you. Might be a dollar or two or if the guy is a shooter, probably do it as a freebie. If we were neighbors, I'd just do for you.
One other thing you might try. I'm assuming you sized your bullets either while lubing or after if you went the cake cutter route. FWIW, I size ALL my .44 caliber bullets to .431" and it's worked for me. However, that's because my cylinder throats are of the proper diameter. One simple test of your finished bullet si, drop them into the cylinder as if they were loaded rouns. Just the bullet mind you and not full coplete cartridges. If the bullets stop, they should be OK. If they fall through, then they're too small and will lead the barrel.
I don't think I've missed anything, but if I have, i'm sure somebody will chime in and give the additional information.
Paul B.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24th, 2009 11:22 PM |
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Ky Greg
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I have not slugged the barrel, and I must say that I'm a tad embarrassed to say that I'm not sure how to do that.
I used Lee Alox lube and have not sized the bullets
No gas checks
Lee 200gr FN mold
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24th, 2009 11:54 PM |
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Paul B
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Ky Greg wrote: I have not slugged the barrel, and I must say that I'm a tad embarrassed to say that I'm not sure how to do that.
I used Lee Alox lube and have not sized the bullets
No gas checks
Lee 200gr FN mold
Read my post again. I gave you the instructions on how to do it.  I don't use the Lee tumble stuff, but use one of several lubes in a Luber/sizer machine. (Lyman 450 or 4500, I have both.) You might want to measure the diameter of those Lee bullets from your mold. Some of the Lee molds I've had over the years cast bullets that were too small.
If your bullet mold is for a gas checked bullet, then that leading could easily come from the fact that you didn't use a check. Probably didn't do much for the accuracy as well.
On slugging the barrel, the first time you do it you will scare the crao out of yourself. All kinds of thoughts will go through your head like, "Am I screwing up?" "What if I can't get the bullet out of the barrel?" While I suggesteted a wood dowel of the proper size, I mess with too many revolvers, my own and those of my friends so I made up a set of Aluminum rods that are of the proper size for the various barrels. Once you find the proper size for the bullet you won't need to slug the bore again. If it's the cylider throats that are too small, you'll either have to find a gunsmith who can correct the problem or send the gun back to the factory and try and get them to do it.
Paul B.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 25th, 2009 12:53 AM |
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Ky Greg
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The bullets I cast are .429 no GC required tumble lube.
Didn't really pay attention to which end it was coming from.
bullets were cast from ingots of unknown source.
man this is hard!!
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| Posted: Sat Jul 25th, 2009 02:16 AM |
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fryboy
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any mag is hard on a lead boolit ,the lube does help as sometimes does harder alloy .... surprisingly enough sometimes softer alloy also helps ...when u say shards i see lil slivers ( i hate to assume but believe that they could be the tumble lube grooves being sized in ur forcing cone ) most leading i am familiar with isnt shards , a quick test is the thumbnail in the side or base of a cast boolit pure lead is softer and marks much much easier than a harder alloy ,linotype for example my thumbnail barely marks it yet pure lead i gouge exerting the same force ,my 44 cb's i use gas checks and a heat treatable alloy ..44 mags with hot loads and soft lead are notorious for leading , that was one of the old complaints of ( i believe it was remington's ) lead target load, they used less than full power loads but a swaged soft lead boolit yet according to stuff i have read elmer kieth had excellent results with a much softer alloy than i use ,one of the most common alloys is wheel weights either water quenched or oven treated then water quenched makes it harder than plain wheel weights but no matter the alloy a great lube does indeed add a lil fudge factor ,some people swear by lee's liquid other's detest it .. i use alot of lyman's moly lube and while it works for me and my alloy it may not for another person ,try the ol thumbnail trick with a known cast boolit and compare it to urs( altho lead hardness testers are nice lol )on the brite side ? ur gaining experience !
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| Posted: Sat Jul 25th, 2009 03:44 AM |
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Ky Greg
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These bullets are hard! A thumbnail won't begin to leave a mark, had to scratch it with a knife tip before it would remove any lead.
I dropped six in the cylinders and they all stopped, none fell thru.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 25th, 2009 05:25 PM |
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Paul B
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"I dropped six in the cylinders and they all stopped, none fell thru."
That gives me a clue, I'm thinking. If the bullets are .429" then it's very possible the throats are not large enough. If the throats are say, .428" and you have yet to determine this, or the bore diameter, and your bore is at a guess .429" or .430", the bullet will be swaged down to .428" and be a loose fit in the bore which will aggravate the leading problem.
There has been a lot of emphasis lately on the bullets being cast as hard as possible.
The late great Elmer Keith used an alloy of 16 to 1 lead and tin, no water dropping, no excess antimony and arsenic added to the melt and he had few problems with leading, or, if he did have problems he never mentioned it. A bullet can also be too hard. Too hard bullets can also be a source of leading.
I still think the problem just might be too tight cylinder throats and the bore being larger than the throats. I base this on your comment,
"I dropped six in the cylinders and they all stopped, none fell thru."
You might try pushing them through and seeing how much resistance you get as it just might be a very snug fit. But, if any metal is removed as shown by shiny spots, the the barrel must be slugged to get it's dimensions.
I hate to keep harping on this, but it is one of the critical factors in obtaining the best accuracy from your revolver. Once we eliminate that as a cause of leading and poor accuracy, then we can look elsewhere.
Paul B.
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| Posted: Sun Jul 26th, 2009 04:02 AM |
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Ky Greg
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Paul B wrote:
"I dropped six in the cylinders and they all stopped, none fell thru."
That gives me a clue, I'm thinking. If the bullets are .429" then it's very possible the throats are not large enough. If the throats are say, .428" and you have yet to determine this, or the bore diameter, and your bore is at a guess .429" or .430", the bullet will be swaged down to .428" and be a loose fit in the bore which will aggravate the leading problem.
There has been a lot of emphasis lately on the bullets being cast as hard as possible.
The late great Elmer Keith used an alloy of 16 to 1 lead and tin, no water dropping, no excess antimony and arsenic added to the melt and he had few problems with leading, or, if he did have problems he never mentioned it. A bullet can also be too hard. Too hard bullets can also be a source of leading.
I still think the problem just might be too tight cylinder throats and the bore being larger than the throats. I base this on your comment,
"I dropped six in the cylinders and they all stopped, none fell thru."
You might try pushing them through and seeing how much resistance you get as it just might be a very snug fit. But, if any metal is removed as shown by shiny spots, the the barrel must be slugged to get it's dimensions.
I hate to keep harping on this, but it is one of the critical factors in obtaining the best accuracy from your revolver. Once we eliminate that as a cause of leading and poor accuracy, then we can look elsewhere.
Paul B.
I'll try to make that my project this week.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28th, 2009 07:13 PM |
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Ky Greg
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Ok here's the numbers that I came up with:
Bore .431
Cylinder throats .432
After I found this info, I went back and got a measurement on the CB's that were supposed to be .429 and found out most are actually between .432-.433! What the heck is up with that? Now what?
Mind you that these measurements were taken to the best of my ability after Hammering a chunk of lead down my SBH! That wasn't the easiest thing to make myself do.. It was a knee weakening event! 
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28th, 2009 07:59 PM |
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Paul B
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Ky Greg wrote: Ok here's the numbers that I came up with:
Bore .431
Cylinder throats .432
After I found this info, I went back and got a measurement on the CB's that were supposed to be .429 and found out most are actually between .432-.433! What the heck is up with that? Now what?
Mind you that these measurements were taken to the best of my ability after Hammering a chunk of lead down my SBH! That wasn't the easiest thing to make myself do.. It was a knee weakening event!
Now that was very enightenting. If those dimensions are correct, then the gus should be shooting with at least reasonable accuracy and little or no leading.
The next thing to look at would be the lubricant and the bullet's hardness. Most commercial bullet lubes seem to work just fine so I'm of the thoughts that the bullets may be too hard.
From on of your previous posts on the subject"
"The bullets I cast are .429 no GC required tumble lube.
Didn't really pay attention to which end it was coming from.
bullets were cast from ingots of unknown source.
man this is hard!!"
Especially this comment, "bullets were cast from ingots of unknown source."
See if you can find a 5 pound block of plumber's lead at either a plumbing supply place or hardware store. Melt it down into one pound ingots and then add one ingot to that harder lead. Make up a few bullets and lube and size them or use as cast if you prefer and try those. If they're still too hard, try another pound of lead to the mix. I imagine that should take care of the too hardness of those bullets, but also check out the diameted of those bullets as well. That addition of pure lead will chamnge the diameter, probably making them a bit smaller. Be careful with that.
Come to think of it, maybe do only a half pound at a time.
Really hard alloys with a lot of tin and antimony will cast larger diameter bullets than an alloy with a higher lead content.
I hear you one driving that slug down the barrel. I've done it on dozens of rifles, some not my own and my heart is up in my throat every time I've done it. That's the main reason I've gone to using an aluminum rod of the proper size (one that just barely fits in the bore.) as sometimes a wood dowel can expand on a tight fitting slug enough to plug things up. Then the fun really starts.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28th, 2009 10:11 PM |
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Ky Greg
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Paul B wrote: Ky Greg wrote: Ok here's the numbers that I came up with:
Bore .431
Cylinder throats .432
After I found this info, I went back and got a measurement on the CB's that were supposed to be .429 and found out most are actually between .432-.433! What the heck is up with that? Now what?
Mind you that these measurements were taken to the best of my ability after Hammering a chunk of lead down my SBH! That wasn't the easiest thing to make myself do.. It was a knee weakening event!
Now that was very enightenting. If those dimensions are correct, then the gus should be shooting with at least reasonable accuracy and little or no leading.
The next thing to look at would be the lubricant and the bullet's hardness. Most commercial bullet lubes seem to work just fine so I'm of the thoughts that the bullets may be too hard.
From on of your previous posts on the subject"
"The bullets I cast are .429 no GC required tumble lube.
Didn't really pay attention to which end it was coming from.
bullets were cast from ingots of unknown source.
man this is hard!!"
Especially this comment, "bullets were cast from ingots of unknown source."
See if you can find a 5 pound block of plumber's lead at either a plumbing supply place or hardware store. Melt it down into one pound ingots and then add one ingot to that harder lead. Make up a few bullets and lube and size them or use as cast if you prefer and try those. If they're still too hard, try another pound of lead to the mix. I imagine that should take care of the too hardness of those bullets, but also check out the diameted of those bullets as well. That addition of pure lead will chamnge the diameter, probably making them a bit smaller. Be careful with that.
Come to think of it, maybe do only a half pound at a time.
Really hard alloys with a lot of tin and antimony will cast larger diameter bullets than an alloy with a higher lead content.
I hear you one driving that slug down the barrel. I've done it on dozens of rifles, some not my own and my heart is up in my throat every time I've done it. That's the main reason I've gone to using an aluminum rod of the proper size (one that just barely fits in the bore.) as sometimes a wood dowel can expand on a tight fitting slug enough to plug things up. Then the fun really starts.
Ok Paul, I'm thinking you've got me closing in on the problem.
Concerning casting softer lead, I think I've got that covered. I was going thru some things at my grandparents basement a few weeks back and I found a big hunk (palm sized) of lead that was very soft. I took that home and added it to the remains of my first casting and these are considerably softer than my first castings which are the ones that started this whole thread. I have some of the softer compound loaded, but I just haven't made it to the range. The soft lead bullets are smaller measuring .431-.432 (as you said)
I wasn't making one ragged hole with the hard bullets, but they were reasonably accurate (for me with open sights), so I'm anxious to see what results these offer.
Where did you get the aluminum rod of proper size?
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| Posted: Wed Jul 29th, 2009 06:57 AM |
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Paul B
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Ky Greg wrote: Paul B wrote: Ky Greg wrote: Ok here's the numbers that I came up with:
Bore .431
Cylinder throats .432
After I found this info, I went back and got a measurement on the CB's that were supposed to be .429 and found out most are actually between .432-.433! What the heck is up with that? Now what?
Mind you that these measurements were taken to the best of my ability after Hammering a chunk of lead down my SBH! That wasn't the easiest thing to make myself do.. It was a knee weakening event!
Now that was very enightenting. If those dimensions are correct, then the gus should be shooting with at least reasonable accuracy and little or no leading.
The next thing to look at would be the lubricant and the bullet's hardness. Most commercial bullet lubes seem to work just fine so I'm of the thoughts that the bullets may be too hard.
From on of your previous posts on the subject"
"The bullets I cast are .429 no GC required tumble lube.
Didn't really pay attention to which end it was coming from.
bullets were cast from ingots of unknown source.
man this is hard!!"
Especially this comment, "bullets were cast from ingots of unknown source."
See if you can find a 5 pound block of plumber's lead at either a plumbing supply place or hardware store. Melt it down into one pound ingots and then add one ingot to that harder lead. Make up a few bullets and lube and size them or use as cast if you prefer and try those. If they're still too hard, try another pound of lead to the mix. I imagine that should take care of the too hardness of those bullets, but also check out the diameted of those bullets as well. That addition of pure lead will chamnge the diameter, probably making them a bit smaller. Be careful with that.
Come to think of it, maybe do only a half pound at a time.
Really hard alloys with a lot of tin and antimony will cast larger diameter bullets than an alloy with a higher lead content.
I hear you one driving that slug down the barrel. I've done it on dozens of rifles, some not my own and my heart is up in my throat every time I've done it. That's the main reason I've gone to using an aluminum rod of the proper size (one that just barely fits in the bore.) as sometimes a wood dowel can expand on a tight fitting slug enough to plug things up. Then the fun really starts.
Ok Paul, I'm thinking you've got me closing in on the problem.
Concerning casting softer lead, I think I've got that covered. I was going thru some things at my grandparents basement a few weeks back and I found a big hunk (palm sized) of lead that was very soft. I took that home and added it to the remains of my first casting and these are considerably softer than my first castings which are the ones that started this whole thread. I have some of the softer compound loaded, but I just haven't made it to the range. The soft lead bullets are smaller measuring .431-.432 (as you said)
I wasn't making one ragged hole with the hard bullets, but they were reasonably accurate (for me with open sights), so I'm anxious to see what results these offer.
Where did you get the aluminum rod of proper size?
I found mine at a hardware store. Try Loewe's or Home Depot. Paul B.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 29th, 2009 09:54 PM |
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16th Post |
fryboy
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as a side note ....higher alloy bullets while casting larger diameter also weigh less than say pure lead ,any of the older lyman's ( but especially the cast bullet handbook.-man thaz the one they need new lolz ! )has several good examples in it ,my .44 255 grn cast about 246-249 with my alloy ( i use about a #2 alloy with a gas check )
i used to have a 9 ( i dont cast 9's )that leaded alot i sprayed them with midways drop out ..ended the leading but i'm not sure that getting the drop out out was as easy as getting the lead out lolz i switched bullet brands and my problem ended
there is no end to the debate over which is better lolz harder or softer ....both have a place the remaining question is ....which does ur gurl ( gun ) like? some'll digest anything well and some ....almost make ya wanna cuss g'luck amigo !
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| Posted: Thu Jul 30th, 2009 12:36 AM |
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17th Post |
Paul B
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fryboy wrote: i used to have a 9 ( i dont cast 9's )that leaded alot i sprayed them with midways drop out ..ended the leading but i'm not sure that getting the drop out out was as easy as getting the lead out lolz i switched bullet brands and my problem ended
Interesting. I've found that the general line of thought that bullets for the 9MM should be sized to .355" to .356" is all wet. I size bullets for the 9mm to eirther .357" or .358" and generally the latter. Ater slugging the barrels on three 9MM handguns, I found that a .356" bullet would be too small and would lead the barrel.
Paul B.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23rd, 2009 01:20 AM |
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Ky Greg
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Sorry for the long delay in getting back to this thread, but today is the first chance I've had to fire the Blackhawk with a new load. I used a softer bullet and stepped up to 16.5 gr of Blue Dot and CCI 350 primers, we shot 20 test rounds and that seems to have all but cured the problem! There was no lead shards/glitter on the brush and none or patch, just a little silvery residue...barely. The bore looks nice and clean.  Next goal is to work up to a short range hunting load.
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My God! How little do my countrymen know what precious blessings they are in possession of, and which no other people on earth enjoy! ~Thomas Jefferson
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23rd, 2009 05:29 AM |
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19th Post |
runfiverun
HB Pro Staff
| Joined: | Sat Feb 9th, 2008 |
| Location: | Soda Springs, Idaho USA |
| Posts: | 194 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
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that would be a fine short range hunting load on deer and smaller game.
pay attention to your lubing with that boolit,and if you finnd some 2400 around that is a very suitable powder.
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