| Posted: Mon Jul 27th, 2009 01:48 AM |
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miestro_jerry
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I see ads and other information on hard cast bullets, some of those bullets are really hard and other are about what Lyman #2 alloy is. Some are heat treated, or water quenched and others are aged.
For many bullets I find WWs do very well. For hotter magnum pistol bullets, I use Lyman #2 alloy. Over 1,600 fps, I use Linotype if I have it. When I exceed 2,200 fps in a rifle the alloy become very hard and experimental to a point.
What I worry more about is the lube being too hard or too soft. If it is too hard, it may fall out of the lube grooves, too soft may give you more ash and smoke.
So do we really need really hard cast bullets? To me it seems to be a sales issue more than a realistic need. Barrel leading can be caused by many things, such as the size of the bullet, the lube as well as the hardness or softness of the lead.
So any one have any experiences or thoughts they would like to share?
Jerry
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27th, 2009 04:39 AM |
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2nd Post |
Slingshot
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Personally I think all the "worries" about how hard a bullet is is way overrated. If you stick with wheel weight type lead you will be fine. All the heat treatments, air cool, water cool etc. seem to me to be more hype then anything. Almost like "Molly Coating" its a fad I have tried molly bullets and have seen no difference at all. I have done all the above also and really can't notice a difference and my hardness tester tells me that the scale only jumps 1 or 2 points after heat treating them. To me it's not worth it.
Now, don't get me wrong I like to try new stuff and new technology or ideas from other people I don't know it all but I think its all personal preference if you want a super hard bullet or a special way you do it everyone has their own way or opinion just throwing my 2 cents worth.
I have used wheel weight lead ingots and roof flashing lead combined and my bullets are hard enough. I always water quench not really for hardness but just to cool them down quick so I don't get burned (old accident makes me hesitant) and it makes a cool sound when it hits the water 
I use them in pistol a lot with no leading problems in 38 / 357 loads, 9mm, 45 ACP, 44 Mag, 41 Mag, and for my T/C stuff 357 Max, 445 super mag, 357 Herrett and I load those pretty hot and still no leading or smoke problems. The bullets I have used never disintegrate or had tumbling problems with.
I use a synthetic lubricant called 44 orange lube made locally here in IL. I have about 40 tubes of it, I recently called them to see if they still make it because this stuff was bought about 20 years ago. They still do but they sell it by the pound not in stick form anymore. If anyone wants the number I can go look it up.
Same thing for rifles, but I really don't push my rifles I shoot cast out of to hot but I do use gas checks on my 30/30 WCF & 303 British, 7.62x54R, they are military rifles and I only shoot them at about 1500 fps for those I use 50/50 beeswax/alox mix and no problems at all with wheel weight ingot lead.
Slingshot / Jeff
Last edited on Mon Jul 27th, 2009 04:49 AM by Slingshot
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27th, 2009 02:10 PM |
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miestro_jerry
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If people truly want to harden their bullet, put a little arsenic in the ally, that will harden them up.
I use a synthetic based lube on all of my bullets.
Jerry
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27th, 2009 03:40 PM |
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wheezengeezer
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For anything but revolvers,as long as they are at least groove dia I dont think you can really be too hard.I just use a home brew #2 by adding a bit of tin to WW and drop into cold water.My newly aquired Mashburn 03A3 30/06 sporter will most likely get used with lino.But then I am hoping to get to 2300 fps.As with any other variable in handloading,there may be a sweet spot when it comes to the most accurate alloy.A proper lube is essential and I have had some leading with the hard commercial lubes in my 44 mags.A revolver is a different animal.An undersize lino bullet will be more likely to lead than one cast from a softer alloy.Some revolvers have cylinders cut smaller than groove dia,and in many cases a softer bullet will be the least likely to lead.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27th, 2009 06:27 PM |
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Paul B
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miestro_jerry wrote: If people truly want to harden their bullet, put a little arsenic in the ally, that will harden them up.
I use a synthetic based lube on all of my bullets.
Jerry
My alloy consists of 10 pounds of wheelweights (cleaned), one pound of linotype, 1/3 cup of small size magnum bird shot (71/2 or smaller for the higer arsenic content) and a 3 foot long piece of 95/5 perent lead free solder.
Wheel weight metal from the 1970's has a higher content in needed alloying material than metal starting from sometime in the late 1980's to date. By adding the above, I make current WW metal closer to that it used to be. It makes bullets in the 14 BHN range as does a batch of WW metal I have from a large buy back in 1973. I only have about 50 pounds of that buy left. 
JMHO, but I think most commercial bullets are way too hard for most purposes in a handgun. My alloy works just fine and the only time I'll water drop them to make them harder is for a small supply of 32 BHN bullets for self defense against a bear or mountain lion while on a hike. I feel there is a lot less chance of the Keith type SWC bouncing off a bear or lion's skull should my very jittery aim be off a tad. I knowjittery because I was once stalked by a Mountain Lion in Nevada while deer scouting. That day, I had a rifle in .243 as i was also hunting coyotes while doing the deer scout thing. A mountain lion at 25 feet in a bit un-nerving to say the least.
IIRC, Elmer keith's pet allpy for his .44 Mag. was a 16/1 lead tin mix. That's got to be a pretty soft bullet, if you ask me.
Paul B.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27th, 2009 06:40 PM |
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Charley
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IMO, waaaay too much emphasis on hardness. You can almost always tell a new caster, because the question will run something like, "I'm shooting XXX bullet , cast hard, in the .2971/2 Tallywhacker. How come I'm getting leading?"
Hardness doesn't matter, grasshopper, beyond a certain point. Bullet diameter and lube are more important. Depending on my use, rifle, pistol, or revolver, and intended velocity, my alloys are either WW/lead, WW, WW+a foot or two of 95/5 solder, or WW + linotype, about 9/1.
I have five boxes of a certain "Silver Bullet", .322 FP for a .32/40. Most useless pieces of crap I've ever launched down a barrel. Harder than a whore's heart, and they're designed for a .32/40 at 900-1000 FPS? Give me a break! Lee's .323 RN for the 8x57, of WW/lead beats them hollow. BTW, they came with the rifle, figure I'll melt the damned things down into something useful.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27th, 2009 09:52 PM |
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miestro_jerry
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I agree with every one, but we have many new reloaders and casters on this forum.
Guy down the road from me shoots 10 to 1 alloy , 10 pounds lead to one pound tin and has very few problems with leading, plus his bullets seem to work well for him.
I only need harder for shooting my Contenders and some of my rifles, which I do push the limits for speed and bullet weight. When I am pushing a rifle bullet over 2,500 fps, the bullet is closer to pewter in it's alloy than Linotype.
If we really want harder bullets, maybe factory jacketed or solid copper bullets would be the answer.
Really good lubes can be purchased or made by the shooter. The place where I get my Alox (Xlox) has great lubes for the do it your selfer: http://www.lsstuff.com/lube/
If some one casts their own bullets, they should have a variety of different sizer dies for their luber sizer. example for 44 Magnum, .430, .431, .432. or for .308, having .308, .309, .311 on hand helps.
My Mod 70 in 30-06 really shoots .309 lead bullets well, where my Spanish FR8 in 308 Win shoots the .311 CBs extremely well. So knowing what your bore specs are, really do help in the cast bullets usage.
Jerry
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28th, 2009 03:23 AM |
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Charley
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Sure not trying to slam the new guys, mostly it is just a lack of experience and exposure to casting. Too many gun writers simply parrot something that somebody told them years ago about cast bullets.
One of the few who do know (or seem to, by their writing) is Mike Venturino. I appreciate his approach to bullet casting, and shooting cast.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28th, 2009 04:03 AM |
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Ranch 13
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I'm 183% behind Charlie on this one. Bullet hardness is way over stated, mostly by folks trying to sound good.....
Get the fit right both in the case and to the bore, forget about half the bullspit running around about crimp,use a good lube, and a powder thats good for cast bullets and you can jam plain based wheelweights in excess of 1600 fps, rifle or handgun.
I'm always amazed at the number of folks that holler you can't run 20-1 or softer bullets faster than about 900 fps, most of the time when I'm shooting those in the bpcr's they don't get down to 900 fps, until they're out there around 1000 yds someplace.
Folks have been known to say you need a hard cast for hunting,so I'm assumming those same folks would try to burn you at the stake if you said you used fmj bullets for hunting, but there's precious little difference when shot into living flesh and bone.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28th, 2009 07:13 PM |
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Paul B
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miestro_jerry wrote: I agree with every one, but we have many new reloaders and casters on this forum.
Guy down the road from me shoots 10 to 1 alloy , 10 pounds lead to one pound tin and has very few problems with leading, plus his bullets seem to work well for him.
If some one casts their own bullets, they should have a variety of different sizer dies for their luber sizer. example for 44 Magnum, .430, .431, .432. or for .308, having .308, .309, .311 on hand helps.
My Mod 70 in 30-06 really shoots .309 lead bullets well, where my Spanish FR8 in 308 Win shoots the .311 CBs extremely well. So knowing what your bore specs are, really do help in the cast bullets usage.
Jerry
JMHO, but a 1 in 10 mix is way too much tin. I know that in a lot of the older Lyman manuals 1 in 10 was a recommended mix but at today's prices there are a lot better ways to make use of tin by using antimony and arsenic to kame a decent bullet that will shoot well.
I agree about having a variety of sizing dies but personally, I feel a .308" die for a 30 caliber isn't much good. I've always preffered at least a .001" and preferably a .002" larger diameter bullet for just about all my cast bullet shooting in rifles and even in some handguns.
Paul B.
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