| Posted: Fri Oct 16th, 2009 07:22 PM |
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KY Hunter
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I recently read an article (I believe was from a Lee Precision publication ) indicating a lead cast boolit could be made more hard or tempered using the following technique:
1. Heat the boolit us to just short of the actual melting or softening point.
2. Immediately drop into chilled water.
The article indicated you could get the boolit upto or beyond 20 on the scale using this technique.
Does anyone know of a tested - factual way yo harden lead using the heat and chill or other method beyond the tin or Linotype materials placed into the melting pot?
If this is a true method or there are other know methods that work, that would be a step forward.
Thoughts??
Thanks KY
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| Posted: Fri Oct 16th, 2009 07:30 PM |
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fryboy
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alot depends upon ur alloy ,i believe a key ingredient is arsenic( or if u prefer arsenate of lead )and antimony,this is what makes it get harder ,the easiest way and the way most guys do it is drop it hot from the mold into a cold bucket of water ( i recommend that u make sure u have to turn away from ur casting pot to do this so water doesnt splash up there)the other process has more ummm flavors and techniques than carter has liver pills, the gist is to set a few boolits on a flat baking pan and slowly raise the heat in ur oven until they just start to slump back off the temp say 10-20 degrees and then stand a pan full of boolits up on end and bake for a bit 30-60 minutes at least then remove the pan and dump into cold water one of the best articles on it
http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm
here's another ( asked by a friend i'm sure u'll recgonize lolz)
http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum/view_topic.php?id=2782&forum_id=57
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| Posted: Fri Oct 16th, 2009 07:37 PM |
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Charley
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The anitimony in WW aloy responds to heat treatment. Some casters just drop the hot bullet in a water quench while casting.
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| Posted: Sat Oct 17th, 2009 05:11 PM |
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Paul B
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Current wheel weight metal does not have as much of the necessary ingredients that they once had.  so, your bullets may or may notget quite as hard as you would like. FWIW, straight linotype does not heat treat very well. Too much tin and no arsenic in the mix.
I still have about 50 pounds of wheel weight metal from a large purchase back in 1973 that will cast a bullet that will age harden to a solid 14 on the BHN scale. Water dropped it will easily go 25 on the BHN scale which is 5 points over fresh linotype and a pretty decent bullet at either BHN level. Current wheel weight metal that I have on hand varies considerably on the BHN scale ranging from a soft 8 to maybe 12 tops after a period of age hardening.
The one thig that I have found to make ater quenched bullets harder than a tax collector's heart is to add arsenic to the melt. A touch of tin doesn't hurt as long as it isn't too much; just enough to aid in proper mold fill out. Increasing the antimony level also helps.
So now, how do we add arsenic in a safe manner so as to not create a hazard to our health? Just how much do we need? What is a safe source of arsenic that we can use? How about bird shot? Magnum or chilled bird shot has arsenic in the mix. When the shot is formed in a shot tower, it is formed as it falls and the arsenic makes it possible for those round little balls to form more rapidly and more uniformly. The smaller the shot size the more arsenic in the shot.
So, how much do we use? It turns out that not a heck of a lot works just fine. I make up my own alloy with current wheel weight metal in 10 pound lots to duplicate the 1973 version or at least come close. Ten pounds of cleaned wheel weights, one pound of linotype, one-third cup of chilled bird shot, (I use 7 1/2) and a 3 foot piece of 95/5 percent lead free solder. Bullets run right about 14 BHN on average which work great in a 30-30 for hunting purposes and for target loads the alloy will heat treat to between 31 and 32 on the BHN scale, the difference coming from the differences in the wheel weight metal.
I use a toaster oven that I calibrated after a fashion to "cook" the bullets for one hour and then drop from the tray into a bucket of cool water. Room temperature is just fine. It doesn't have to be ice water. Bullets run about 20 BHN right from the water and age harden to the 30 to 32 BHN level in about two weeks.
One thing I do prior to heat treating is I size and seat gas checks before treating them. It is said that sizing them after heat treatment destroys the hardening process. After they're treated and age hardened, I'll lube them with a lube die .001" larger than what the bullets were sized. So, if I'm doing .30 caliber, I size the bullets at .310" and lube with a .311" die. Bullets handled that way have shot to 1.5 MOA at 200 yards from my .308 Win. at a velocity of about 1500 FPS.
Anyway, that's what has worked for me.
Paul B.
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| Posted: Sat Oct 17th, 2009 11:44 PM |
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miestro_jerry
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What would be the uses for hardened bullets, there are several ways to increase hardness?
Jerry
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18th, 2009 12:32 AM |
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fryboy
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big game for one or anywhere where one desires more penetration, some think to stop bore leading but there's alot more to it there than that
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18th, 2009 04:00 AM |
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miestro_jerry
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Add a pinch of Arsenic to your alloy and then water quench the bullets. Use a synthetic lube on your bullets and you will see a big difference.
You can HT the bullets, but they will not get that much harder than what I descibed above.
Jerry
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18th, 2009 04:37 PM |
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Paul B
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miestro_jerry wrote: Add a pinch of Arsenic to your alloy and then water quench the bullets. Use a synthetic lube on your bullets and you will see a big difference.
You can HT the bullets, but they will not get that much harder than what I descibed above.
Jerry
That is true. However, some feel that sizing the bullets after the water quench may ruin the hardening effect. If that's the case, it kind of defeats the purpose of making the bullets hard in the first place. At least metallurgist dennis Marshall stated as such in his article on heat treating cast bullets in the Lyman cast bullet manual.
While I "cook" my bullets for about an hour, Ed Harris over on the cast Bullet Association site recommends "cooking"the bullets from 6 to 8 hours. I figure he has a lot more expertise than I do but I do question the length of time.  I wonder if that toaster oven I use for treating my bullets would last that long or would it fry it's little self into oblivion and burn my shed down in the process?
Paul B.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18th, 2009 05:03 PM |
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Paul B
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miestro_jerry wrote: What would be the uses for hardened bullets, there are several ways to increase hardness?
Jerry
Fryboy answered, "big game for one or anywhere where one desires more penetration, some think to stop bore leading but there's alot more to it there than that."
I don't agree. For hunting, I try to keep my bullets at 12 to 14 BHN tops and they work very well. Too hard and they will zip though game like those full metal jacketed bullets used for deep penetration on stuff like Cape Buffalo and elephants. You don't need that for deer sized game and a heavy for caliber bullet in .30 caliber will dig deep enough even for elk, although I would pefer someting in .35 caliber or larger.
Where the "super hard" cast bullet comes into play for me is I can increase the velocity soemwhat for long range target shooting. Leading is also either non-existant or so minimal as to be negligible if the alloy is correct. My alloy leaves what looks like a very slight wash that may be nothing more than a coating of antimony. Once there, it doesn't increase in size/depth and seems to affect nothing. Probably no different than the copper wash from a jacketed bullet and the gun seems to shoot better once a uniform layer of that 'wash" has been deposited in the barrel.
Paul B.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18th, 2009 05:13 PM |
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fryboy
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one can creative engineer those lil toaster ovens to temper steel ( including external insulation wrap ) amazingly enough those lil buggers are tougher than we think but i wouldnt want to run one like that while i was sleeping,there has been much published on this by various experts( including baking quenching and repeating ) i do know the less that they get sized ( or worked) the better,by that thought sizing from .359 to .357 will work it more than sizing to .358 or .3585 ,one thing i cant duplicate is the age hardening lolz ,water quench from the mold with minimal sizing will leave it harder than no quench at all,but one thing people often overlook is the simple slug ur bore and size accordingly
ur lil toaster shouldnt fry it's self without ur help lolz but i have seen fan cords burst into flames( boy doesnt that make ya want to unplug every cord in the shop and house )i'd still want to set it up where the chances of fires are reduced considerably
now if i could just figure out how to "age " them overnite lolz
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18th, 2009 09:31 PM |
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miestro_jerry
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As far as any hardness diminished by the sizing process, I tried to verify this a few years ago, I had a PTC hardness tester in my machine shop to use for such things. I didn't find any difference between hardness before sizing and after sizing.
I like a softer bullet for hunting, it deforms and releases all it's energy in it's intended target, where much harder bullets may go thru.
If you want to make the bullets harder with the arsenic alloy, water quench product, let then sit in the box after sizing for about a year. After that period of time, they won't get any harder and some alloys actually start getting softer.
Heat Treating is a fun experiment, but I have the equipment to do such things, a toaster oven doesn't really work even if you mess with the controls, it may burn out. Find some one with a Potter's Kiln and turn it on to a very low temperature. Use a thermometer, not the cones.
Jerry
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28th, 2009 01:30 AM |
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sako06
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At one time I had a Egyption 11mm Remington Rolling Block converted to 45-70 ,used a lee mould with linotype made some really hard bullets I dug some from the berm and they weren't even marked just a bit dirty.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28th, 2009 07:25 PM |
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Paul B
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As hard as linotype is to find these days, using them in large bullets like for a 45-70 is a waste of assets more usable in making a decent alloy that will work just as well, even though it is a bit more work.
The one I use most of the time is 10 pounds of current wheel weights (cleaned of course), 0nepound of linotype for the added tin and antimony, one third cup of small size bird shot, (for the higher arsenic content than found in larger shot sizes,. I consider 7 1/2 size the largest size usable.) and a 3 foot long pice of 95/5 percent lead free solder. (For the tin.
Bullets cast from this alloy will age harden to about 14 BHN in two weks. Oven treated and water quenched, they will age harden to betweet 30 and 32 BHN in roughly two weks. Clean fresh linotype will BHN out at 22 on the scale and most used linotype about 20 on the BHN scale. I have a recovered 500 gr. bullet that hit a large bull elk in the seat of the pants cracking the pelvis and was recovered by the bulge in the front of the elk's chest. The bullet was so undamaged, I could relube it, load it and shoot it again. It was as I recall 31 on the scale when loaded. BTW, that's anout 8 points harder on the scale than fresh linotype and better that 10 points on some used linotype. Bullet was loaded to about 1550 FPS and fired from a marlin 1895. Bullet had to be seated very deeply in order to feed in the gun. Range for the shot was maybe 35 yards as the elk tried to run off. The rifle was mine and the ammo loaded by me but was used by a friend for a dark timber elk hunt. When he got back from the hunt, he gave me the bullet along with a few steaks.   He also tried to buy tht rifle from me. I still have it.
Paul B.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28th, 2009 07:37 PM |
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sako06
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When I ceased casting bullets I used my lead to make 5 lb deepsea fishing weights good for dropping lines down to 900 feet for calif scorpion rock fish.Many different caliber inexpensive nosler blem bullets are available from http://www.bivwak.com .
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28th, 2009 07:57 PM |
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sako06
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I quenched my 32 cal bullets in water to harden them.The hot 458 diameter linotype bullets were dropped into small aluminum jello mold filled with approx a 1/2 inch of javelina bullet lube did a perfect job of lubing them,never sized them because I was breech seating them in my 45-70 rolling block chamber then inserted a case charged with SR 4759 & a dacron over powder wad.Learned the painful way about shooting 500gr cast bullets,my rifle had a curved steel buttplate.Fired one once never again my shoulder turned several colors on the way to healing!
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28th, 2009 11:48 PM |
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Ranch 13
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I think bullet hardness is way over done in most instances. I've recovered air cooled wheelweight bullets that have traversed thru various animals, including one that went thru an elks skull and most of them look almost as tho they could of been loaded and fired again.
Heres some 530 gr bullets cast from certified 20-1 recovered from the snow behind a paper target at 270 yds.
Here's a recovered 550 gr paper patch bullet recovered from an elk shot at 204 yds.
Last edited on Thu Oct 29th, 2009 12:48 AM by Ranch 13
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29th, 2009 12:27 AM |
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miestro_jerry
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I answered the question asked in this thread, my self, some hunting and lower velocity bullets WW will work great, hunting I like a softer bullet with a gas check. When I am shooting my thunder boomers, I need the bullets to be harder because of the high velocity, because soft lead will start "melting" away in the barrel. But the inverse of the situation, very hard lead bullets may shatter in flight or upon impact.
In my 600 NE, I shoot as close to pure lead as I can find. of course that is a 1050 grain bullet on top of a bunch of IMR 3031. BTW no gas checks for these fellows.
Jerry
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31st, 2009 06:38 AM |
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cedarswamp1
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Some are of the belief that too much expansion at handgun velocities, has an adverse effect on penetration. I've yet to witness this myself but I only hunt medium sized game. It may make a difference on an elk sized animal.
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31st, 2009 08:29 AM |
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miestro_jerry
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Cedar,
You are very correct, it would be an elk size animal or larger, or more dangerous. That is if you are using conventional modern wisdom. For my 300 RUM to be effective on a large animal like an elk or a moose, the alloy would be more like 95% Tin, 3% Antimony and 2 % Copper. Basically pewter. I can take these bullets up to about 2,700 FPS, above that speed the bullets get unpredictable, they may shatter on impact or powder up in flight. I have played with pewter in the past, in some handgun cartridges, it becomes a crude armor piercing bullet, but best to figure out a gas check for these bullets, like a FreeChek. Pewter bullets may solder your barrel, instead of leading it.
I would rather find a large bore bolt action shotgun that has a strong receiver. There is a thread going on about adapting a rifle to handle 12g type shells and use a big honking bullets. Where I am going to play around with a Mossberg bolt action 12gauge and some "Dangerous Game Slugs" from BPI,
http://www.ballisticproducts.com/prodinfo.asp?number=0721612
I am planning on using all brass shell from Rocky Mountain Cartridge:
http://www.rockymountaincartridge.com/page7.html
The 2 and 7/8" ones should do, but I may call them and get a true 3 inch shells from them.
I plan on loading with warmer than normal for a shot gun, but nowhere near what a large bore rifle is loaded.
Katie and I maybe selected, because we are both certified hunters, but also retired, to take the training for tracking, tranqing large animals and some of our urban myth animals so they can be safely relocated. Gahanna Ohio has a Lion, Zanesville, Ohio has Big Foot. We have the the Jerusalem Bear not too far down the road. With the advent of a large natural gas pipeline construction locally, we were surprise by all of the wild life that has been displaced in our area. I know that we have a fox in a neighbor's thicket now and there have been two sightings of a "cougar".
We do have wild pigs and boars along with their offspring in the area, I have seen the signs of them and some of the damage they do, but haven't seen one to shoot at. Plus it is deer season and I am restricted to shotguns here in Ohio during deer season.
So the Mossberg will have the barrel cut down some, maybe some type of optical sight installed and ready for when the tranq gun doesn't work, or if we get cornered.
Plus it gives katie something to carry besides lunch, while we are searching the woods and fields.
Being retired has some advantages, we not rich, but we are not hurting. Have to keep things interesting, so I don't end glued to the tube getting much older before my time.
Jerry
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31st, 2009 10:27 AM |
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sako06
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Felis concolor has been expanding its range eastward for years from the western states.A friend who took game mgt in college & has a logging company in PA reported seeing mtn lions years ago,he reported his observations to the PA game commission but they discounted his sightings ,they don't anymore because Felis concolor is established in many eastern states.They are real deer eradicators taking approx 54 deer per year not counting fawns and yearlings.
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