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Looking for 12ga Gold Medal Hulls
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 Posted: Tue Jun 1st, 2010 06:53 PM
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ghrit
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TMan51 wrote: ghrit wrote: Clearly understood.  Just this minute finished cross checking the data (again) and IN THIS CASE (watching what I'm doing) it works.  Appreciate your input, Colt, thanx.

Interesting thread,

I have been using the Estate hulls for a bit, and although I have not tried anything at the max end of the spectrum, they seem to work quite well.  They also work with the same wad/powder/primer as the Federal hulls I've picked up.

FWIW, when I can't find specific hull data, I've resorted to using lower velocity data loads with Alliant powders, and have for years.  The Estate hulls, like the current Federal's, seem to last 3-5 cycles before the crimp splits, about average for cheap hulls.  They resize easily, the primer pockets remain snug, and there are no overt indications of a problem.

Like any reloading exercise, any excursion from data established in a test lab means you're on your own.  Even then, you're on your own.   With shotshell loading, it's fairly easy to look across a series of powders, and compare wad/charge and shot weight, etc. for a combination.  When you find a combination that gives pressures in the 8000psi range for several hulls, and multiple wads/primers, with a given powder, substituting a polyformed hull is not going to be a problem.
TMan, I got a note this morning from a guy I respect highly that agrees with you about the Estate hulls.  He is older than I am (we both saw the earth formed and he might have witnessed the Big Bang.)  He may well have been reloading for trap and skeet since before I was big enough to hold up a shottie.
To follow on a bit with this experiment, I loaded 10 Fed TG hulls yesterday using the Clays recipe from Lyman's 5th for Fed Gold Medal.  Cross referencing with 45 Colt's hints and Hodgdon's data tells me that the same recipe will work work for the Federal Top Gun hulls, which are physically identical to the current crop of Estates.  Gotta say that the crimps are bad ugly, but are tight.  (Bulged a bit at the top.)  Which wads are you using, if I may ask?



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 Posted: Wed Jun 2nd, 2010 01:57 PM
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TMan51
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ghrit wrote: TMan,   Which wads are you using, if I may ask?


I keep the WAA20/WAA12, WAA12SL wads, and the Claybuster equivalent on hand, and use them for most everything.  I Trim the petals for some loads, and use a Tyvek sleeve.

Most of my shotshell loads are for informal clay shooting with my daughter and/or friends .  I load 20Ga 3/4-7/8oz. and 12 Ga. 7/8-1oz. to moderate velocities.  The main reason I'm not concerned is that these loads are all in the moderate range no matter what I put them in.  When we go for a couple rounds of 16yd trap, I use factory stuff.  I do load buckshot in 12/20Ga, but I only use precisely defined recipes and components to do that, and I drop charges by 1/2 gr for luck.  I never bother with buffer most of the time as it seems to make very little difference.

Although I've loaded thousands of shotshell rounds over the years, I never actually trust max loads for my own use.  Same for handgun cartridges.



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 Posted: Wed Jun 2nd, 2010 03:44 PM
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ghrit
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Thanks, confirms my best guess. Claybusters CB 1118 substitute for WAA12 is what I have and have started with. Over 18 gr of Clays and with 1-1/8 oz for informal trap. With the bad ugly crimps in what I know are once fired Federal hulls, I'm guessing the crimper needs a tweaking. That said, I loaded some Estates last night, and the crimps are not quite as ugly.

The olde phart I mentioned above says I should be using CB 2118-12, in spite of the manuals telling me the 1118 is the direct sub. Thoughts?

(I'm beginning to wonder if I'm getting wrapped around the finicky axle.  And thanks and congrats to mrghostwalker for triggering this (up to now) WAY off topic discussion.  WOW!! 600 looks and only 20 odd posts!!)



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 Posted: Wed Jun 2nd, 2010 07:36 PM
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.45 COLT
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The 2118 is made for the hull you're loading. The 1118 is made for a tapered hull. I wouldn't switch just so's to be absolutely perfect. What you're using is acceptable from a safety standpoint, and if it breaks the birds, well,,,,,,,

DC



 Posted: Thu Jun 3rd, 2010 01:28 AM
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ghrit
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.45 COLT wrote: The 2118 is made for the hull you're loading. The 1118 is made for a tapered hull. I wouldn't switch just so's to be absolutely perfect. What you're using is acceptable from a safety standpoint, and if it breaks the birds, well,,,,,,,

DC
Thank you, sir.  I read the above just before heading to the range, and the safety worry quotient went down by a power of ten.  I took 20 in the Estate hulls and 5 in the Federals. All went bang, felt consistent.  (But now I know the ammo, the gun, and the birds are not the problem with my average  --.)



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 Posted: Thu Jun 3rd, 2010 06:12 PM
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TMan51
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.45 COLT wrote: The 2118 is made for the hull you're loading. The 1118 is made for a tapered hull.


Yep, one of the reasons I use the wads for tapered hulls, is that they will work ok in straight hulls, but the reverse not so well.

That way, in an airhead moment, one of my mild loads doesn't become a hot one :wink:



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 Posted: Sat Jun 12th, 2010 06:10 PM
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TMan51
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I know this is a Federal Hull thread, but we swapped a lot of opinions on Estate hulls going through.

I'm still picking them up, but they have changed the design on the base wad on the newer ones.  They are not quite the same dimensionally.



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 Posted: Sat Jun 12th, 2010 10:06 PM
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.45 COLT
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"They are not quite the same dimensionally"

Do you know if Federal has also changed basewad? That rolled paper base seemed to be kind of a set design. Somebody in Anoka doing some busywork maybe, trying to justify the cost of keeping him on the payroll. :rolleyes:

DC

Last edited on Sat Jun 12th, 2010 10:07 PM by .45 COLT



 Posted: Sun Jun 13th, 2010 03:13 PM
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.45 COLT wrote: "They are not quite the same dimensionally"

Do you know if Federal has also changed basewad?

DC


DC, not that I've found.

There is a public shooting area for clays that is on the way to some of the accounts I visit, and I shoot there with my daughter and/or friends regularly.  I'm always amazed that so many guys dump once fired hulls, often several hundred at a time.  Usually I dump the whole mix into my truck bed, and sort 'em later.

I don't see a lot of Federal Gold Medal, but there's always a few Top Gun hulls.  They haven't changed.



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 Posted: Sun Jun 13th, 2010 03:14 PM
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ghrit wrote: Thanks, confirms my best guess. Claybusters CB 1118 substitute for WAA12 is what I have and have started with. Over 18 gr of Clays and with 1-1/8 oz for informal trap. With the bad ugly crimps in what I know are once fired Federal hulls, I'm guessing the crimper needs a tweaking. That said, I loaded some Estates last night, and the crimps are not quite as ugly.

The olde phart I mentioned above says I should be using CB 2118-12, in spite of the manuals telling me the 1118 is the direct sub. Thoughts?

(I'm beginning to wonder if I'm getting wrapped around the finicky axle.  And thanks and congrats to mrghostwalker for triggering this (up to now) WAY off topic discussion.  WOW!! 600 looks and only 20 odd posts!!)


What press are you using? (if this is posted somewhere on page 1, I apologize for missing it).

My MEC's all have crimp starters and you need to, with those, use ones made for the right number of folds. An 8-fold starter will do a passable job of coaxing a thick hulled 6-petal into line (but it still isn't right), but, a 6-petal one will really jack up an 8-petal hull. It'll crimp, but, it'll be some ugly hybrid bastige somewhere arround 7 petals or something. Done it........

 

Perhaps you have the wrong starter or something similar going on.

 

A friend at work I go Pheasant hunting with a fair bit loads Estates for pheasant. I get them for him for free (range pick-ups) and he doesn't worry about loosing them in Western Ks's CRP fields. I have enough older Fed. High Power hulls that I don't want them, but, I've been latching onto a few of the Win. HS's, for future similar use possibly.

 

He uses Fed. data in them, it is a light load, esp. compared to mine. LOL.



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 Posted: Sun Jun 13th, 2010 05:21 PM
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ghrit
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OldStuffer wrote: ghrit wrote: Thanks, confirms my best guess. Claybusters CB 1118 substitute for WAA12 is what I have and have started with. Over 18 gr of Clays and with 1-1/8 oz for informal trap. With the bad ugly crimps in what I know are once fired Federal hulls, I'm guessing the crimper needs a tweaking. That said, I loaded some Estates last night, and the crimps are not quite as ugly.

The olde phart I mentioned above says I should be using CB 2118-12, in spite of the manuals telling me the 1118 is the direct sub. Thoughts?

(I'm beginning to wonder if I'm getting wrapped around the finicky axle.  And thanks and congrats to mrghostwalker for triggering this (up to now) WAY off topic discussion.  WOW!! 600 looks and only 20 odd posts!!)


What press are you using? (if this is posted somewhere on page 1, I apologize for missing it).

My MEC's all have crimp starters and you need to, with those, use ones made for the right number of folds. An 8-fold starter will do a passable job of coaxing a thick hulled 6-petal into line (but it still isn't right), but, a 6-petal one will really jack up an 8-petal hull. It'll crimp, but, it'll be some ugly hybrid bastige somewhere arround 7 petals or something. Done it........
 
Perhaps you have the wrong starter or something similar going on.
 
A friend at work I go Pheasant hunting with a fair bit loads Estates for pheasant. I get them for him for free (range pick-ups) and he doesn't worry about loosing them in Western Ks's CRP fields. I have enough older Fed. High Power hulls that I don't want them, but, I've been latching onto a few of the Win. HS's, for future similar use possibly.
 
He uses Fed. data in them, it is a light load, esp. compared to mine. LOL.
Hi, OS  -

MEC Jr. 600 Mk5.  I have not meddled with the crimp die (the 8 fold is installed, and using it on 8 fold hulls) probably won't do any adjusting.  Coming off the crimp station, there is usually a dimple in the rim of the fold (and occasionally a swirl)  but seems to have no effect, they all go bang.  It happens on both the Estate and Fed. Top Gun hulls, so I'm guessing 'tain't the hulls.  (The feds show a bulge around the crimp rather often where the Estates do less often.)  I don't think it's technique, either; I'm careful to always cycle the handle full stroke over the cam, so that ain't it.

Until I got pretty confident of the powder drop being where it is supposed to be, I weighed nearly every charge.  What I can't see is whether or not the fill is where it's supposed to be, but the felt recoil is consistent.  The n-32 bushing consistently drops 18 grains of Clays.

The shot fills the cup.  Setting the wad is not pressure dependent, it just bottoms the press handle, no pressure indication shows.  That alone raised the question in my mind about the wad being correct, even tho' I'm assured it is not optimal but will work.  I think I'll have to order the 2118s and see if it makes any difference.  Anyway, the finished hulls don't rattle, so the crimps aren't too loose.

I've been looking to scoff some AAs at the range, but I'm too lightly built to get into the scrum that usually happens when one hits the ground ---

Regards



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 Posted: Sun Jun 13th, 2010 06:06 PM
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OldStuffer
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ghrit wrote: OldStuffer wrote: ghrit wrote: Thanks, confirms my best guess. Claybusters CB 1118 substitute for WAA12 is what I have and have started with. Over 18 gr of Clays and with 1-1/8 oz for informal trap. With the bad ugly crimps in what I know are once fired Federal hulls, I'm guessing the crimper needs a tweaking. That said, I loaded some Estates last night, and the crimps are not quite as ugly.

The olde phart I mentioned above says I should be using CB 2118-12, in spite of the manuals telling me the 1118 is the direct sub. Thoughts?

(I'm beginning to wonder if I'm getting wrapped around the finicky axle.  And thanks and congrats to mrghostwalker for triggering this (up to now) WAY off topic discussion.  WOW!! 600 looks and only 20 odd posts!!)


What press are you using? (if this is posted somewhere on page 1, I apologize for missing it).

My MEC's all have crimp starters and you need to, with those, use ones made for the right number of folds. An 8-fold starter will do a passable job of coaxing a thick hulled 6-petal into line (but it still isn't right), but, a 6-petal one will really jack up an 8-petal hull. It'll crimp, but, it'll be some ugly hybrid bastige somewhere arround 7 petals or something. Done it........
 
Perhaps you have the wrong starter or something similar going on.
 
A friend at work I go Pheasant hunting with a fair bit loads Estates for pheasant. I get them for him for free (range pick-ups) and he doesn't worry about loosing them in Western Ks's CRP fields. I have enough older Fed. High Power hulls that I don't want them, but, I've been latching onto a few of the Win. HS's, for future similar use possibly.
 
He uses Fed. data in them, it is a light load, esp. compared to mine. LOL.
Hi, OS  -

MEC Jr. 600 Mk5.  I have not meddled with the crimp die (the 8 fold is installed, and using it on 8 fold hulls) probably won't do any adjusting.  Coming off the crimp station, there is usually a dimple in the rim of the fold (and occasionally a swirl)  but seems to have no effect, they all go bang.  It happens on both the Estate and Fed. Top Gun hulls, so I'm guessing 'tain't the hulls.  (The feds show a bulge around the crimp rather often where the Estates do less often.)  I don't think it's technique, either; I'm careful to always cycle the handle full stroke over the cam, so that ain't it.

Until I got pretty confident of the powder drop being where it is supposed to be, I weighed nearly every charge.  What I can't see is whether or not the fill is where it's supposed to be, but the felt recoil is consistent.  The n-32 bushing consistently drops 18 grains of Clays.

The shot fills the cup.  Setting the wad is not pressure dependent, it just bottoms the press handle, no pressure indication shows.  That alone raised the question in my mind about the wad being correct, even tho' I'm assured it is not optimal but will work.  I think I'll have to order the 2118s and see if it makes any difference.  Anyway, the finished hulls don't rattle, so the crimps aren't too loose.

I've been looking to scoff some AAs at the range, but I'm too lightly built to get into the scrum that usually happens when one hits the ground ---

Regards


Minor adjustment to the crimping die supposedly needed.

Looking for what i recall in the MEC manuals............

Manual is here, if you don't have:
http://www.mecreloaders.com/documents/ownermanuals/600JrMark5.pdf

free download.

"Shell has a swirl in the crimp. Adjust by loosening cam adjust screw #8324 and move cam up, or clockwise. move about 1/32" and try again."

Move it too far and it'll make an opening in the center of the crimp. Find the right spot between them.



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 Posted: Sun Jun 13th, 2010 06:14 PM
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Oh, and to actually GET some wad pressure (IMO, 20-40 pounds is pretty much "optimal"), all you do is loosen the allen screw on between the handle sections on the drop tube body, and pull the drop tube ("wad height indicator") downward a bit until you start actually getting wad pressure. IF you go too far, the shorter drop tubes CAN slip out the top. Make sure this won't happen. Highly unusual using target (taller cushioning section) wads for lighter payloads. CAN happen with heavy hunting loads. I THINK the newer MEC loaders (like the Mk-5) no longer have the somewhat shorter drop tubes that were standard on older models.

I have a 310, a 700 Versamec, and a Grabber 76, love them all.

It is best to, at minimum, simply insure that no air-space exists between the powder and the wad base, to insure correct ignition performance.



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 Posted: Mon Jun 14th, 2010 08:02 AM
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ghrit wrote: You might be able to find some Estate target hulls, they are the same thing. I believe that Federal now owns Estate. Also, for what it's worth, I sectioned a couple of each, they are identical internally.
That sounds great. I have a bunch of Estates and was looking for load data. I did email Federal and ask them, they sent me this:

"Greetings,

The estate hulls can be reloaded and following the data from the
attached link will get you started.
[url=http://www.federalpremium.com/pdf/FP294_ShotshellReloadingData.pdf]http://www.federalpremium.com/pdf/FP294_ShotshellReloadingData.pdf[/url]
follow the data marked ([b]12 gauge 23/4" hunting-type plastic case[/b]) the
estate hull is the same as our top gun and target loads with paper
basewad.

Thank you"

Anyway you post some pic's of the shells so we can all get a look?



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 Posted: Mon Jun 14th, 2010 01:07 PM
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msta999 wrote: ghrit wrote: You might be able to find some Estate target hulls, they are the same thing. I believe that Federal now owns Estate. Also, for what it's worth, I sectioned a couple of each, they are identical internally.
That sounds great. I have a bunch of Estates and was looking for load data. I did email Federal and ask them, they sent me this:

[code]"Greetings,

The estate hulls can be reloaded and following the data from the
attached link will get you started.
[url=http://www.federalpremium.com/pdf/FP294_ShotshellReloadingData.pdf]http://www.federalpremium.com/pdf/FP294_ShotshellReloadingData.pdf[/url]
follow the data marked ([b]12 gauge 23/4" hunting-type plastic case[/b]) the
estate hull is the same as our top gun and target loads with paper
basewad.

Thank you"

Anyway you post some pic's of the shells so we can all get a look?

Nothin' like an informed opinion I always say.  Thanks for sharing that one.  The newest hulls DO have a plastic basewad, and the confirmation is slightly different.  But if the displaced volume is the same, it should be good.



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 Posted: Mon Jun 14th, 2010 03:14 PM
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Now to clean up some administrative details before I get the camera out and try to get some usable pix.  Don't hold your breath, my camera work leaves something to be desired; I'd like a nickle for every time I've tried to shoot closeups successfully.  (But I will give it a whack and report.)

Msta999:  :sad: Drat.  That page is in "sorry for the inconvenience" mode.

Mrghostwalker:  Many apologies for hijacking your Federal Gold Medal thread and side tracking it onto Estate and Federal Top Gun hulls.

16gauge: :bow: I owe you something by way of an apology, too.  You are correct that the Gold Medal hulls are different than the Top Gun items I was looking at in section.  That was the original blunder, and it's mine.


OldStuffer, TMan51 and .45 Colt:  :thumbs:  Thanks for the tips.

Yes, I have the O&M for the press.  It appears that the drop tube is "long" but I have nothing to compare it to.  (That said, there are some pellets on the floor from me not watching where I had the handle positioned when I pushed the charge bar--.)  

One thing about setting up to get some measurable wad pressure, Lyman's 5th indicates that pressure on plastic wads is pretty immaterial or words to that effect, so I've ignored the lack of any indication, just seated to the bottom of the stroke.  My gut feeling is that much in the way of pressure will collapse the wads, at least partially.  Further deponent sayeth not, I think meddling with that adjustment would cause me problems.

And to compound the felony of me operating without experience, it seems that the crimp would just go deeper if the wad was collapsed under seating pressure.

If I understand all I think I know, :confused: adjusting the crimp die up will improve the looks.  I've never much cared about cosmetics all else being equal.  (But I might just do it to see what happens.)  Given my very limited experience, I'll guess a couple things:  First, a deeper crimp will increase pressure on ignition, simply because it will take a bit more oomph to unroll the crimp.  Second, a bit of swirl will have the same effect.  Third, leaving a bit of space above the shot load will allow some rattling around.  Not necessarily a bad thing like a short powder charge might be, but un-neat, shall we say.  So far, they've all gone bang.

All feedback welcome, this learning curve will eventually flatten.  So far, it's been like figuring out how to ride a bike without ever seeing one in use.  Just about every time I pull the handle, there's an "Ah-HA!!" moment ---

Now where the Sam Hill did I put the camera?



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 Posted: Mon Jun 14th, 2010 05:43 PM
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Not common, but a cause for intermittent weird crimps can be a bound or sticking crimp starter. If it doesn't align properly, messy things can happen.

Wad Pressure - I usually run about 10 - 20 pounds, just to seat the wad before the payload is dropped. With old-style wads (Nitro Cards), wad pressure was more important. It was to evacuate air from the powder charge and ensure an even burn. Book loads for those type most generally had wad pressure specified. Most people, myself included, often applied wad pressure incorrectly. The right way is to insert
only the Nitro Card. apply specified pressure and hold for 1+ second(s). Then insert the filler wads, using only enough pressure to seat them on the Nitro Card. Applying wad pressure with most one-piece plastic wads will slightly (or greatly, if you get carried away) compress the crush section of the wad. Usually this doesn't have much effect of the utility of the load, but once in a while the wad will decompress, opening the crimp. That usually only happens if initial pressure was excessive.

DC

Last edited on Mon Jun 14th, 2010 05:46 PM by .45 COLT



 Posted: Mon Jun 14th, 2010 06:41 PM
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msta999
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Joined: Mon Jun 14th, 2010
Location: Washington USA
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Sorry, I see I really goofed this. I forgot that wasn't a link, but an attachment. Here I'll try to fix this.

Open the link below, go to Resources, Then click on "Shotshell loading data" and look for "hunting-type plastic case.
I just received another email from them saying all Estate Hulls are the same.

Federal Load Data



I see I can't figure out how to use the "quote". Had to start over. Sorry about the double post.

Last edited on Mon Jun 14th, 2010 06:44 PM by msta999



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 Posted: Tue Jun 15th, 2010 03:06 AM
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ghrit
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Joined: Fri Apr 14th, 2006
Location: Endless Mountains, Pennsylvania USA
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My favorite chambering is:: 2-3/4 dram equiv, 1 OZ, 7-1/2 trap
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Here are the hulls I"m using so far.  A bit fuzzy ---.  Left to right
Estate
Federal, no name
Federal Top Gun

Attachment: P6141184.JPG (Downloaded 39 times)



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 Posted: Tue Jun 15th, 2010 03:09 AM
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ghrit
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Joined: Fri Apr 14th, 2006
Location: Endless Mountains, Pennsylvania USA
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Fed Top Gun.  Note the uneven crimp, which I think is due to going a bit too far as mentioned above, and leads me to think adjusting the crimp die higher might make it prettier if nothing else.

Attachment: P6141190.jpg (Downloaded 39 times)



____________________
-Remote locations are cheap insurance.
-There are two kinds of ships: Submarines and targets


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