| Posted: Sat Oct 31st, 2009 10:58 PM |
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21st Post |
maddogg 286
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And remember the more you shoot a rifle the further the lands get from the bullet - they do wear away.
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miestro_jerry
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I am making this a Sticky, it is really useful information.
Jerry
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| Posted: Sat Jan 16th, 2010 12:58 AM |
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fryboy
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this thread was apparently accidentally locked and i opened it , because the O.P. started another thread i'm quoting okie2 here and bringing his link from the soon to be deleted thread
" Old topic locked so here is a new one
this will maybe explaine what I tried to make clear to all of you this web page is for
measuring your head space but is the same principal as finding the lands in your chamber like in my old post same topic.
http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2007/07/20/tech-tip-poor-mans-headspace-gauge/ "
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| Posted: Sat Jan 16th, 2010 05:58 PM |
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24th Post |
smacks
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I'll check my ticket. I may have boarded the wrong boat.
smacks
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18th, 2010 02:40 PM |
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DesertMarine
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Would suggest that with whatever method you use to measure headspace, that you remove the ejector from the bolt as it will affect your measurement because of the pressure the ejector puts on the case
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18th, 2010 03:50 PM |
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26th Post |
Don Fischer
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Not reallyDM. If you use a rod to measure it with, the rod is not imparred by the ejector.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18th, 2010 06:13 PM |
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27th Post |
DesertMarine
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Don, I am not familiar with checking headspace using a rod, how does it work?
What I have been taught about checking headspace by a gunsmith and someone I consider very knowledgeable about the subject, is that the ejector will give you a false reading due to the pressure it applies to the gauge and/or case.
I looked up, checking headspace, on the Internet and found two references, one in Shooters Magazine, http://www.rifleshootermag.com/gunsmithing/headspace_0612/, which says to disassemble the bolt and remove the ejector. The other, in surplus rifles, http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/headspace/index.asp, which says the same thing but no mention of the ejector. In surplus rifle, they are using a Mauser which has a fixed ejector separate from the bolt. But like in everthing else, I am sure there are different ways to check headspace.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18th, 2010 09:34 PM |
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Don Fischer
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That could be on checking headspace but this is about measuring to the lands,,,,,,I hope!
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18th, 2010 10:12 PM |
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18th, 2010 11:06 PM |
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TnTom
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DesertMarine wrote: I tried the Lee crimper on 270 and did not see any benefit in terms of accuracy. So I quit doing it. But not saying it does not work or not needed. Reloading is similar to making love to a woman in that each rifle/woman is different and the fun part is finding out what works.
I like the idea of seating a flat based bullet and pushing it in to the case. Wish I had thought of it.
do you mean you seat a bullet turned around backwards? Or whats the significance of the flat base bullet? You totally lost me.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18th, 2010 11:32 PM |
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31st Post |
TnTom
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DesertMarine wrote: Don, I am not familiar with checking headspace using a rod, how does it work?
What I have been taught about checking headspace by a gunsmith and someone I consider very knowledgeable about the subject, is that the ejector will give you a false reading due to the pressure it applies to the gauge and/or case.
I looked up, checking headspace, on the Internet and found two references, one in Shooters Magazine, http://www.rifleshootermag.com/gunsmithing/headspace_0612/, which says to disassemble the bolt and remove the ejector. The other, in surplus rifles, http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/headspace/index.asp, which says the same thing but no mention of the ejector. In surplus rifle, they are using a Mauser which has a fixed ejector separate from the bolt. But like in everthing else, I am sure there are different ways to check headspace.
disassemble the bolt until there is nothing interfering with the bolt closing. That should be the firing pin assembly and depending on which bolt your using maybe the ejector maybe not.. if it adds load to the closing of the bolt take it out .
close the bolt on a sized case and you should feel almost no resistance, almost like there was no case in the chamber. If you meet significant resistance your case is too long, bump the should back a .001 or so.
To actualy measure headspace you must use a go no/go standard (gauge) and a field gauge for service rifles. If the bolt closes on the no go gauge probably the chamber is worn enough to detect if. The bolt should close with no resistance with the go gauge in the chamber.
Regardless it only tells you your chamber is in spec. (good to know).
This has nothing to do with distance to the lands.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18th, 2010 11:53 PM |
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DesertMarine
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Don, I have seen the rod used to measure OAL or finding the lands. I do not use it but other persons do and works well.
TNTom,
Busted submitted the following quote for finding the lands. ""We've always just seated a flat base bullet upside down and let the lands shove it into the case. After measurements use a kinetic bullet puller to pop it out."
Yes. And that provides all the accuracy we need for seating test experimentation."
Yes, finding the lands and measuring headspace, two entirely different things. FryBoy submitted a link on a method to measure headspace. The discussion changed to headspace.
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19th, 2010 01:43 AM |
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33rd Post |
TnTom
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DesertMarine wrote: Don, I have seen the rod used to measure OAL or finding the lands. I do not use it but other persons do and works well.
TNTom,
Busted submitted the following quote for finding the lands. ""We've always just seated a flat base bullet upside down and let the lands shove it into the case. After measurements use a kinetic bullet puller to pop it out."
Yes. And that provides all the accuracy we need for seating test experimentation."
Yes, finding the lands and measuring headspace, two entirely different things. FryBoy submitted a link on a method to measure headspace. The discussion changed to headspace.
Using the back of the bullet? Whats the logic? Why not bullet forward? One is accurate the other is totally not if your trying to establish a reference for a bullet and a specific distance to jump.
The back of the bullet? You mean the base? In the case reversed?
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19th, 2010 02:26 AM |
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smacks
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Which will give you the length from the case head to where the lands begin. Then when you seat a pointed bullet you can use this backwards set up to line up your
ogive. I do it all the time. smacks
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19th, 2010 03:36 AM |
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Rockydog
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There was mention here of the inaccuracy of the pencil marks on the rod or dowel inserted to measure. What about laying a single edge razor blade across muzzle and marking or scribing the rod with that. Should give pretty darned fine lines to measure. RD
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19th, 2010 04:38 AM |
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36th Post |
TnTom
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smacks wrote: Which will give you the length from the case head to where the lands begin. Then when you seat a pointed bullet you can use this backwards set up to line up your
ogive. I do it all the time.smacks
How do you "line up the ogive" or what are you lining up? A picture would help a lot. I'd like to see whats aligning with what.
Last edited on Tue Jan 19th, 2010 05:15 AM by TnTom
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19th, 2010 05:04 AM |
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TnTom
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Rockydog wrote: There was mention here of the inaccuracy of the pencil marks on the rod or dowel inserted to measure. What about laying a single edge razor blade across muzzle and marking or scribing the rod with that. Should give pretty darned fine lines to measure. RD It would be as accurate as your capable of measuring. If your using the inside diameter side of your caliper probably within .001 - .002" if you hold your tongue right.
If you use the depth mic end of your caliper measure from the end of the rod or dowl to the muzzle and subtract the two lengths . It works good with no interpretation of on or off the line or scribe line and you can hold your tongue any old way.
Last edited on Tue Jan 19th, 2010 05:12 AM by TnTom
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19th, 2010 03:18 PM |
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DesertMarine
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TnTom wrote: smacks wrote: Which will give you the length from the case head to where the lands begin. Then when you seat a pointed bullet you can use this backwards set up to line up your
ogive. I do it all the time.smacks
How do you "line up the ogive" or what are you lining up? A picture would help a lot. I'd like to see whats aligning with what. "
As I understand the upside down bullet method, the base of the bullet acts as the ogive. As the base touches the lands, the bullet is pushed into the case which gives you the OAL at the ogive. One question comes to my mind. Sometimes when checking OAL, the bullet will get jammed into the lands and the bullet is pulled out. When using the base method, does/can the bullet base get jammed into the lands with the bullet being pulled out.
With the Stoney Point/Hornady method that happens quite a bit but with the rod in the tool, the bullet goes right back to the point where the ogive hits the lands.
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19th, 2010 05:03 PM |
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TnTom
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The ogive is a mass or a cone if you wish that has a distance along the length of the bullet that starts at the meplat ending at a point tangent to the body. The meplat end of the bullet enters the freebore and comes in contact with the lands at a point somewhere along the ogive when the bullet is initially set forward in the case. That point of contact is a circle about the ogive called the datum point.
It is that datum point that reflects the length from the base to the datum lands. That distance can be adjusted using the seating die to establish a specific distance from the lands or sometimes refered to as jump.
Every bullet of the same caliper has a different length or weight has a datum unlike the other. It is not the same from bullet weight to bullet weight and the datum point comes in contact with the lands at a different point along the ogive.
Using the base of the bullet measurement method to determine the distance from base to the datum point would provide a value that never changes regardless of the weight of the bullet. A bullet that weight 69grs would measure the same as a bullet that weight 77gs. when measuring the base to datum.
The method that is described using the base of the bullet will provide a value that has no usefulness in determining base to datum which is what the entire process is about UNLESS there is a method to transfer that length to a datum point along the ogive.
That is my question: How is that value transfered and how do you determine where along the ogive should that value be applied.
Using the correct end of the bullet (the pointy end) seat the bullet to the lands, with proper press force so as to not "pull" the bullet. The distance is established and that sample is used to set the die. You can then measure its over all length, base to tip, and you can screw in the seating die adjusting screw what ever amount of jump you want and every bullet will be the same from that point forward provided your set up is solid.
If you measure base to meplat (tip) of the 20 rounds just loaded they will vary but the base to datum and jump will be the same.
When using the bullet base method to determine datum point how is the distance transfered to the correct datum point on the business end of the bullet and how do you measure it correctly?
Last edited on Tue Jan 19th, 2010 05:10 PM by TnTom
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19th, 2010 06:51 PM |
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DesertMarine
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TnTom, you have two questions. Will try to answer them.
"That is my question: How is that value transfered and how do you determine where along the ogive should that value be applied."
When you measure OAL with a tool like Stoney Point/Hornady, or one like what Sinclair has, the point on the ogive that is measured is where the ogive first contacts the lands. RCBS has a OAL gauage that uses a system similar to the split case method and measures on the first contact point on the ogive.
"When using the bullet base method to determine datum point how is the distance transfered to the correct datum point on the business end of the bullet and how do you measure it correctly?"
Since I don't use the base method, I am not too sure but believe that the base of the bullet acts as the point on the ogive that first contacts the lands which then acts the same way as base down methods. Which means that a flat based bullet with no bevels on the base needs to be used. A boattail bullet will not work.
"Every bullet of the same caliper has a different length or weight has a datum unlike the other. It is not the same from bullet weight to bullet weight and the datum point comes in contact with the lands at a different point along the ogive."
This is true. The only thing common to all bullets is that you measure at the point on the ogive that first contacts the lands. Then other considerations come into play such as seating depth, magazine length considerations for which I measure each bullet type/weight rather than one measurement for all.
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