| Posted: Wed Oct 28th, 2009 11:03 PM |
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OKIE2
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Split 2 sides of sized case neck insert bullet of your choice just enough to hold it then chamber it
remove carefully and measure as picture. this will give you the most accurate measurment you can get. THEN SET SEATING DIE TO THIS LENGTH.
the lands will push bullet back into case.
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6.5 rem mag
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300 win mag
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29th, 2009 12:03 AM |
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miestro_jerry
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That is very useful information, now I can tailor some of my loads to the exact rifle.
Jerry
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29th, 2009 12:50 AM |
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swampshooter
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Good drawing Okie2.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29th, 2009 02:22 AM |
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Thecyberguy
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Thanks for the info.
Guy
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29th, 2009 03:24 AM |
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DesertMarine
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How did you determine what size pistol case to use? How did you figure out that the pistol case is at the same place on the ogive that the lands would be touching? It is an interesting way to do it.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29th, 2009 04:59 AM |
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Don Fischer
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I hadn't noticed that he used a pistol case the first time I read this. What pistol case do you use? I just thought about it and simply take that loaded case and stick the bullet into the muzzle of the rifle and it will do what you want. Of course it doesn't count for a lot if you don't have the Sinclair tool that goes on the caliper to measure it, I don't.
You can do about the same thing without sacrificing a case by cutting it. Just run a cleaning rod with a blunt tip down the barrel to the bolt face and mark the rod at the muzzle. Next remove the bolt and drop a bullet into the chamber to the lands and hold it there with a long pencil. Then run the rod in the barrel again to the bullet and mark it. The distance between the marks is the OLL for that bullet. Use that bullet to set your seating die and the OLL will be right. You can subtract from that to get distance off the lands.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29th, 2009 01:14 PM |
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ghrit
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OK, I'll hereby reveal the bottomless ignorance of a non-handloader. Referring to the drawing, if OAL is base to ogive, then what is the name of the overall length measurement, base to tip?
Looks to me as tho' measuring base to tip during loading would be a lot simpler and more reliable. It makes sense that one would like to know where the rifling hits the bullet so the actual base to tip would be known from either Okie2 or Don Fisher's methods.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29th, 2009 04:17 PM |
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StretchNM
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I think measuring from the ogive is the most accurate and desireable....... for a match competition shooter. But the Don Fischer method is pretty simple. I still don;t quite understand the pistol case application in the drawing above, for several reasons, and the measurement certainly isn't OAL.... rather it's a modified measurement.
I still am trying to understand it, but in this forum and another, Okie has yet to return to answer my questions and the questions of others...like in this thread. I'd like to give this a try, yet as it stands, it doesn't make much sense.
The way I do it is rudimentary....crude.... and the way probably all of us do it. I make a slit in an old case. Insert the bullet just barely. Chamber and gently close the action. Remove and measure (OAL!!). Then pull bullet out a little and do it again, just to make sure the OAL stayed the same. Now you know the distance to lands for that particular bullet. This is exactly the method Don Fischer is describing, except that a case must be used (split neck cases are good for this). You must do the same for other bullets you use, as the ogive is different on each. Now you subtract .010 or .020 or whatever from your COAL and work down (shorter) from there...... or not......Last edited on Thu Oct 29th, 2009 04:19 PM by StretchNM
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29th, 2009 04:37 PM |
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Don Fischer
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If for OLL you measure base to tip but make it so all the cartridges chamber without touching the lands, you'll be fine. The measurement from base to ogive is the accurate measurement as it's the ogive of the bullet that touches the lands first. the reason that the tip doesn't work the same is that it's claimed that all ogives are not in the same place all the time. Probably true but most the time they are. Get your base to tip right and load all your rounds. Then run them all thru the action to be sure they are off the lands. If not, just re-set the seater die to get them all just off. You could do everyone again or just those touching. For hunting that measurement is not critical, for accuracy work it can be. But keep in mind that measuring base to ogive will not tell you if the round will fit in your magazine. My ex has a 6mm Rem on a 700BDL SA. If I load 100gr bullet's out to just befor the lands, the rounds don't fit in the magazine, to long. That rifle has to long a throat even tho it's probably to spec's to load that 100gr to the lands. So it has to jump a bit. But shooting the rifle single shot, you can. Last edited on Thu Oct 29th, 2009 04:39 PM by Don Fischer
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29th, 2009 05:05 PM |
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DesertMarine
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Sometimes it takes a while before I can understand something. My main question is, using the split case method how do you know or what tells you where to measure on the ogive? The split method is similar to the smoked bullet method which leaves a mark on the ogive and gives a measuring point but I am guessing w/out leaving a reference point on the ogive.
I use the Hornady OAl tool in which you seat the bullet deep in the case and push it into the lands, then measure with the comparator for that caliber, which will measure at the same point on the ogive that the split case and smoked bullet will seat at. The Hornady tool does take some practice and technique learning to get consistent readings but it works.
I load all my ammo, hunting and target, the same. For me, I want my hunting ammo be as precise and consistent as I can make it. I want to give myself every advantage that I can. Others load hunting ammo to different standards then target ammo and it works for them, that is great.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29th, 2009 06:00 PM |
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Rapier
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I really appreciate the effort and the idea. A number of folks seem to forget that these things are free to them, and were done at the designer's expense.
Thanks for taking your time Okie2 to try and help others
Best,
Ed
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29th, 2009 06:03 PM |
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StretchNM
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Well, measuring Overall Length to Lands (OLL?) is fine, as the ogive is where the bullet is going to touch the lands. The problem is, bullet seaters don't work that way. While they do rest on an ogive, it is NOT the ogive we're looking for in any of the above methods. So......
The only way to make the above work (unless Okie returns and sets me straight on whatever it is I'm missing), is to use the same caliber, no the exact same pistol case that was used to take the above measurements. Even in that case, the pistol case gives no assurance that the mouth of the case is at the ogive where the lands were touching, so it isn;t a matter of what size pistol case, but rather just using the same pistol case for each measurement. In other words, just any old pistol case (why not a .44 pistol case for reloading that .300WSM?????). hehe
So now we set our seating depth and keep pulling the cartridge out and, using the pistol case, measuring from rim to rim until the measurement is the same. Complicated and unecessary, I contend. .....And whether it is that or not, the measurement most certainly is NOT "OAL", but rather just a measurement given on a random spot somewhere along the ogive of the bullet, with that random spot being replicated (by using the same pistol case) at least until the bullet seater is adjusted and set.
Capiche? Me neither.
This is "capiche-able": Place bullet barely into split case. Insert into chamber and close bolt, thereby pushing bullet into case. Take out and measure COAL. Repeat to make sure measurement is the same (within a couple of thousandths). Subtract .010, or .020, or .030, or .040, or........ on and on). Set bullet seating die to that COAL. Done.Last edited on Thu Oct 29th, 2009 06:08 PM by StretchNM
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29th, 2009 06:54 PM |
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StretchNM
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Rapier wrote: I really appreciate the effort and the idea. A number of folks seem to forget that these things are free to them, and were done at the designer's expense.
Thanks for taking your time Okie2 to try and help others
Best,
Ed
Ed,
I appreciate the idea too. It was submitted on another forum in its exact form as here. I think Okie is onto something. My only problem is: What is that something? I think it's a DIY substitution for the Stoney Point OAL guage...(?) If so, that's always good, but......I'm curious here, as in the other forum, and have several questions in order to fully understand the idea as presented. Other members do too.
I'd like Okie to return and elaborate on the schematic and process of the method. If you or others understand it, perhaps, in Okie's stead, these questions can be answered:
- What size pistol case? Is caliber relevant? (Certainly it must be of a smaller caliber than the caliber being measured....at least)
- How is the "ogive" determined? (Certainly it must be random if the pistol case is the determining tool)
- How can the length of pistol case be subtracted to give an "OAL" or "COAL". That isn;t possible (unless I'm missing something OR unless terminology is at play)
Good idea. Great initiative. Poor follow-up. Kudos to Okie. Please return and help us in the discussion.
Last edited on Thu Oct 29th, 2009 06:58 PM by StretchNM
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29th, 2009 10:01 PM |
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DesertMarine
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Thanks Stretch, helped my questions. While trying different methods to determine COAL, I have tried the Stoney Point/Hornady method, smoked bullet, expanding the case mouth and seating a bullet into the lands w/rifle bolt. With all methods, one thing that happens, not all the time, is that the bullet will jam into the lands and have to push it out and the bullet pulls out of the case when extracting case w/bolt. With this method, how do you know if bullet jammed and pulled out of case while extracting case? I see pitfalls that will not allow you to get an accurate reading. With the Stoney Point/Hornady method, if the bullet jams in the lands and is pulled out of the case while extracting, does not matter. This system has a rod that pushes the bullet to touch the lands and is locked in, so it is a simple matter of inserting the bullet in the case to the rod and you will get a reading on the position that the bullet touched the lands. Still have not seen an answer as how you determine on split case method, how you know that point on ogive that touched lands and point on ogive that you measure is the same. On StoneyPoint/Hornady system, your comparator has same diameter as on lands. The split case method w/pistol case could work if inside diameter of pistol case is same diameter of lands. That is why I asked for what pistol case was used to measure 300WSM. Wonder if that was a BS question but in any case sparked a good discussion.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29th, 2009 10:27 PM |
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StretchNM
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Well yes, DesertMarine, that is one of the reasons why I ask about the caliber of the pistol round too: Is it the same diameter as the lands (certainly not) and, what diameter is it and why? It is not a BS question - it's a good one, and one that I asked on the other forum. It is key to understanding this sytem, I think.... at least for me. I'm sure I'm missing something, but it looks like we need Okie to help.....
Anyway, we may not get clarification on that diagram for some time, at least until Okie returns or someone else understands the diagram sufficiently.
Here's how I do mine:
- using an old case, I cut a slot in the rim about 3/4 of the way down to the shoulder. I use a flex-shaft Foredom with a cutting blade in it. This leaves a burr on one side of the inside of case neck which serves to help grasp the bullet;
- I push a particular bullet in just far enough to hold, noting and memorizing where the bottom of the bullet is in relation to the slot in the case neck (this could even be marked with a sharp awl, but I've never had to do that);
- Chamber and carefully (gently) close the bolt;
- Carefully extract, using your thumb against the case to resist the pressure exerting outward on the case from the ejector;
- Note now where the bottom of the bullet is in relation to the slot (this may show just a few thousandths of space);
- Measure the COAL;
- Now pull the bullet out a little (I've had to sometimes use an inertia bullet puller - tapping just enough to move the bullet out a tad);
- Re-chamber, extract and measure;
- The measurements from the first and second attempts should be within a couple of three thousandths of each other. Also, judging by eye (bullet bottom in relation to slot), you can tell that the bullet moved down into the case like it did the first time). All of this is to determine whether or not the lands are grasping the bullet and changing the depth;
- Now you have a cartridge that can be measured from case bottom to bullet tip (COAL) and if you mark that box of bullets, it could be called length to lands. The fact that the measurement is not to the ogive is truly irrelevant unless your a benchrest competition shooter (and even then!) because from case bottom to tip of bullet is close enough (recognizing of course that bullet tips vary, even when not damaged). But the variances here are a mere couple of three thousandths and you're going to be deducting at least .020 I would think;
- Now you may deduct your distance "off the lands" by deducting from the COAL. I'm conservative (in all things) so I deduct about .030 and mark the bullet box as "Length to Lands 3.520" and "MAX COAL 3.490", for example. So my bullet boxes will have two measurements: one for length to lands and the other for COAL. I may not ever load a cartridge to that particular length - perhaps they'll always be sufficiently shorter - but it lets me know how long I can make the cartridge if I need to.
I've measured all my bullets for 3 calibers and I haven;t had a bullet stick in the lands yet, but I take care as above in case they do. I also gently close the bolt to help avoid that problem. And......again, the burr inside the case neck helps, I'm sure. I'm just thinking now that another thing we could do if the lands persist in "grasping" the bullet is to lube the bullet, from ogive to tip, with a little vaseline. Maybe that would help prevent it.....Last edited on Thu Oct 29th, 2009 10:46 PM by StretchNM
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| Posted: Fri Oct 30th, 2009 02:34 AM |
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DesertMarine
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Thanks Stretch. Your explanation clears up my questions. My comment about BS was more about Okie maybe posting a BS question that wound up starting a great discussion. And that was more because Okie would not respond to questions.
There certainly are different ways to accomplish one thing and whatever works for someone then it is good. I had thought of trying the Sinclair system but I am comfortable with the Stoney Point/Hornady system so I'll stick with it. Besides I have all the cases and comparators for the calibers that I load.
To get consistent results with the Stoney Point, I have to be careful when I push the bullet to the lands, that I do it gently and tighten the rod carefully, otherwise, I can change the position of the bullet. Like someone else said, unfortunately some/most rifles have such a long leade that you cannot load your round with the COAL that you want and still be able to use the magazine. Especially true of the black rifle using heavy long bullets.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 30th, 2009 04:55 AM |
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StretchNM
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Yes, I see that too about not being able to load to the max COAL, once determined.
For example, in 22-250, two Speer bullets, on 50gr and the other 55gr, I show a length-to-lands of 2.435" and 2.445", respectively. If I only subtracted .020 from each, I really don;t think there's enough bullet length there to load to that measurement and still retain the bullet in the case neck. And....I haven;t even tried that length to see if it would fit in the magazine.... probably not.
So, I made my measurements solely for the purpose of knowing approximately the length-to-lands measurement for each of my bullets. Whether I'll ever find the need to load to that length (or less .020" or so) I don;t know. I do know that in my 30-06, a Rem700, it groups best when there's a substantial jump to the lands. The closer I get to the Max COAL, the wider my groups open up. I don;t understand the "smithing" end of rifles enough to understand why this is......
What helps me more than anything is factory crimping with the Lee die. I just recently discovered that, for the 30-06 and 22-250, the Lee FC die really does help. Again, I don;t understand the "mechanics" enough to know why....
Last edited on Fri Oct 30th, 2009 05:00 AM by StretchNM
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| Posted: Fri Oct 30th, 2009 03:23 PM |
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swampshooter
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We've always just seated a flat base bullet upside down and let the lands shove it into the case. After measurements use a kinetic bullet puller to pop it out.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 30th, 2009 03:53 PM |
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Busted
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"We've always just seated a flat base bullet upside down and let the lands shove it into the case. After measurements use a kinetic bullet puller to pop it out."
Yes. And that provides all the accuracy we need for seating test experimentation.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 30th, 2009 08:37 PM |
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DesertMarine
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I tried the Lee crimper on 270 and did not see any benefit in terms of accuracy. So I quit doing it. But not saying it does not work or not needed. Reloading is similar to making love to a woman in that each rifle/woman is different and the fun part is finding out what works.
I like the idea of seating a flat based bullet and pushing it in to the case. Wish I had thought of it.
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