| Posted: Mon Nov 2nd, 2009 06:55 PM |
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miestro_jerry
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In another thread the "Dum Dum" bullets was mentioned. The only examples of dum dums that I have seen came from a police department from the time when they used S&W model 10s.
In those good old days, the police used a 38 Spl type of cartridge, with a pure lead round nosed bullet. I don't think the bullets were cast, but were swaged.
The bullets were scored with an cross on the nose. This wasn't what the factory did, this is what the bad guys, as well as the good guys did. These folks took a knive and a maul, placed the edge of the knife on the bullet and hit the spine of the knife with the maul, then turned the knife 90 degrees to form the cross and did the same thing again.
This was suppose to make the bullet spread out more or cause the bullet to break up into four pieces on impact. I tried shooting a few of these that I made and the bullet didn't spread out any more than a unscored bullet, plus the accuracy wasn't as good with the Dum Dums. I believe the inaccuracy was due to changing the density of the bullet, as well as changing the ballance.
So this attempt of making a "hollow point" effect bullet or fragmentable bullet is more myth than fact.
Just another historical moment on our forum,
Jerry
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| Posted: Mon Nov 2nd, 2009 07:42 PM |
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Dragon88
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This was used in a movie. I have no idea which one, saw it many years ago when I was a kid, but the lady in the movie made some "hollow points" as you describe.
In an episode of The Unit, Grey handloads some "special rounds" with mercury in them to shoot a target in a large crowd. He describes how the mercury will slam forward and cause the bullet to fragment completely inside the target.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 2nd, 2009 07:49 PM |
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miestro_jerry
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The mercury things is also a myth, the bullet is not balanced properly when you put mecury into a hollow point. I thinbk the police chief Jaws try doing the mercury thing.
Any one out there tried to put a primer in to a hollow point? I haven't tried it, but I don't think it will work.
The Dragnet Theme fro the 50's, 60s and 70s is "Danger Ahead", they used a kettle drum for the Dum Da Dum....Dum.
Jerry
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| Posted: Mon Nov 2nd, 2009 09:33 PM |
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Charley
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The name came from the Dum Dum Arsenal in India. An officer developed an expanding bullet for the then new .303, and the name kinda took on a life of its own. DumDum became a slang term for any expanding bullet for a while.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 2nd, 2009 09:53 PM |
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daboone
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I just check Wikipedia to make sure you weren't spoofing, and Dum da Dum...Dum Another of histories unique expression exposed.
My favorite is the term "Shake a leg". During the first world war (The American Revolutionary War) American sailors were allowed to have their wives sleep on board while in port. For reveille the mate would yell "SHAKE A LEG" and if a female leg appeared out from behind the bunk curtain the sailor was allowed to remain in the sack for another 15 minutes!
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| Posted: Mon Nov 2nd, 2009 10:35 PM |
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Paul B
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Charley wrote: The name came from the Dum Dum Arsenal in India. An officer developed an expanding bullet for the then new .303, and the name kinda took on a life of its own. DumDum became a slang term for any expanding bullet for a while.
I'm glad somebody got it right. At he time, the bullets were round nose with a full metal jacket. All they did was reverse the process so that the nose of the bullet had exposed lead instead of the base. It workd quite well against the group kown as "The Assassins", thugs doped up on hashish. IIRC, they were also called "The Thuggees".
The only true dum dum bullets are those that were made at the arsenal at Dum Dum India. Anything else, softnose ot hollowpoint. cross cuts on the nose or any other idea to make a nasty wound is not a dum dum bullet. 
Paul B.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 2nd, 2009 10:55 PM |
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miestro_jerry
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I just posted what I know and what I have seen, I will have to talk to my friends in the U.K. about this bullet.
What I posted is true of an era in America, so the name came from an Indian Arsenal for trying to create a more lethal bullet. The point is that peopled desired a higher expansion bullet to kill better with.
Dum da Dum....Dum.
Jerry
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| Posted: Mon Nov 2nd, 2009 11:41 PM |
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miestro_jerry
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Gentlemen,
I do stand corrected on this stubject. Now that I know, I can pass that along to others.
Jerry
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| Posted: Mon Nov 2nd, 2009 11:42 PM |
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OldStuffer
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Never heard of putting a primer in a HP bullet, and, I don't think it would detonate, unless it hit bone real good.
Also had not heqard of putting mercury in a bullet, BUT, I HAVE heard uf putting Mercury FULMINATE in a HP, to explode on impact.
Pour it in the HP, seal top with wax. Is supposed to survive the firing as it is "held securely", the impact on the target, which damages the wax, and concusses the M.F., is supposed to detonate it.
Don't know if it works, I don't make Fulminate of Mercury, so none arround here. ;)
Hmmmmmmm..... Maybe Mythbusters needs an e-mail.......... ;)
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Dragon88
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The mercury thing might be bunk, but the general idea of filling the HP with something seems valid. Ballistic tip bullets work quite well, and Hornady is using the idea quite a bit lately in their Lever Evolution and Critical Defense ammo.
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miestro_jerry
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Dragon,
I agree with what the manufactures are doing with ballistic tip bullets, they do work. The problem I see is doing this at home with simple tools.
Fulminate of Mercury is corrosive, poisonous and explosive, they used to use it in primers. If any one decides to make some at home, please be at least 10 miles from me.
If you want to try something that may or may not work, try an anticoagulate. You find it in rat poisons, not sure of which brand, but the terrorist seem to use in their suicide bomb, so if you get hit from the detonation, you will bleed to death or that is the theory behind using it.
Many people take some form of anticoagulate for heart and stroke problems.
There are many ways to kill, they seem to get better over the years, but a well placed bullet works for me.
Jerry
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mel gibson mentioned dum dums in one of his movies ( cant recall which one atm ) mercury in the hollowpoint is supposed to poison the shootee....never tried it but i suppose if ur shot isnt enough to kill "it" that the mercury is theoretically supposed to cause a slow and painful death ( wonder if any suicide bombers would volunteer for clinical trials ? lolz ) years ago they did make a exploding bullet with a primer in the tip sealed by red lacquer what was under the tip i have no clue ,the ones i seen were in 357 mag ,from my understanding they were outlawed and consequentially contraband hence i didnt have much desire to own any ,the mystery/action movie fav of mine was "ice bullets" ( it'd better be danged cold out or u'd have a dud )
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Charley
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mel gibson mentioned dum dums in one of his movies ( cant recall which one atm )
Not sure about Gibson, but Bryan Brown certainly did in Breaker Morant. Caerainly worth seeing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sRagEZjmsk
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OldManMontgomery
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Filling a hollowpoint lead bullet with mercury cannot work. Mercury combines with lead and forms an amalgum, sort of a slushy compound. In other words, the bullet dissolves into a lumpy mess. Check and see if elemental mercury isn't used for cleaning heavily leaded bores, back in the old days. Or just check a chemistry text.
I've been present at the testing of hp bullets with small pistol primers seated in the opening. Very disappointing. The primer didn't ignite most of the time. If any did, the discharge had very little effect on the bullet itself. Filling with a charge of some explosive and a primer that would positively ignite would probably be exciting, but the labor to so do would probably be more effort than the resulting effect.
Back the early part of the 20th Century, many criminals smeared garlic on the bullets in the belief garlic would cause serious infection if the initial wound did not kill. (It is my understand that never really worked, and in today's medical environment, it would be pointless.)
In my misspent youth, I tried the 'cut an "x" in the front of the bullet' experiment. Again, disappointing. .38 Special just doesn't run a 158 lead bullet fast enough to expand anything. A full WC or SWC bullet delivers as much energy and momentum as any other shape.
In point of fact, there have been many game animals killed and many villains felled by a large diameter flat fronted SWC or WC bullets. Without expansion.
The more I work at this (now going on forty years) the more certain I am most pistols do well with flat lead bullets. This is not to say no pistol bullets expand, but for general purposes, they aren't needed. For self or home defense, a 44 caliber bullet of 200 grains or more with a flat front moving at any velocity above about 850 feet per second is going to take care of most anything.
Rifles with higher velocities do well with expanding bullets.
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miestro_jerry
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OldMan,
I agree with you on the pistol bullets, there are some factory bullets that do expand a lot in pistol rounds, but I never really saw the need for them. In conceal piece I do carry defensive bullets that may or may not expand or inflict more damage, I just carry them because my attorney said to carry factory ammo due to liability.
With rifle ammo, I have used high expansion bullets, and bullets like the Barnes TSX, but I also found that a cast bullet that is a little softer than WWs work extremely well. Where I find the problem with cast rifle bullets is at extreme speed and/or over 150 yards.
Jerry
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Benc48
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In my carry gun I use Glazers, Compressed #12 shot. 100% energy ay inpact, The jacket brakes up and the shot goes EVERY where. Try a few and see if you like the results.
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miestro_jerry
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Benc48,
I have used the "Glazer safety" bullets before, you are right they do brak up into little pieces. To me they are a little pricey, there are some other ones like the Glazer ammo, but is compressed copper, carbide and lead, I just find find them these days, so I will research my notebooks.
I prefer the HydraShok, but I also prefer to not have to use such ammo, so I try to stay out of harms way.
Jerry
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Benc48
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Jerry
Mag safe was another one, I still have two box's of 357 super-vel one in 110gr. and the other in 125gr. I used the hydra-shock in the past myself, But with all the large cap.
guns out there and me with my wheel gun I need all the help I can get.
Ben
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miestro_jerry
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My S&W 340 PD has right on the barrel to use 120 grain or larger bullets.
I would like to find something that makes a Black Talon type of bullet look like a spit wad. Until then the HydraShoks will do me the best for this small 357. If it was my L Frame with the 6 inch barrel, I would look at different ammo, but if I am going big, I move in to a 1911 with just about any anti personnel ammo. I figure at 5 to 10 feet with a 1911 they will be wasted.
A lot of people don't really understand if a perp is looking down the barrel of a 1911, all they see is a BFG. After that all they see is the bullet, maybe.
Jerry
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