| Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 11:51 PM |
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kscchtrainer
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Last November, Gander Mountain here in Wichita was selling Mosin Nagant 91/30's for $99.95 and in a fit of madness, I made them haul out a bunch of them from their vault so I could hand pick one. The one I brought home had a really crappy shellac finished stock on it and the muzzle was hogged out from using the issued cleaning rod, but other than that and a hundred pounds of cosmoline, the bore looked really good and all the serial numbers matched (including the butt plate)! Managed to score a set of Lee dies along with 150 rounds of once fired Winchester brass plus a couple hundred 177 grain Sierra Match king .311 boolits in the same week.
Initially used the starting load of Varget for the 177gr Match Kings and it slung 'em in about a 2" circle at a hundred yards. Acceptable for a WW2 battle rifle, but I figured it might be able to do better.
Saw a post on another forum where some guy had cut a flat target crown on a hogged out Mauser using a Lee case trimmer of all things, so I tried it myself on the 91/30. YeeHaaa! Without changing the load, the groups went sub MOA. My old tired eyes don't do open sights very well anymore, so I started looking for a decent no-gunsmithing scope mount. Found one that looked to be kinda wierd, but turns out it works really well. It replaces the rear sight leaf with a fairly long chunk of machined aluminum bar stock. To keep it from moving, a small stainless steel hose clamp secures this bar to the chamber reinforce and another block of aluminum is fastened to the bar with a Weaver style rail mounted on top of that. I got a reproduction sniper bolt body with a turned down handle to go along with it and mounted a reasonably inexpensive BSA Contender 3-12 power side focus scope on the thing. Finally I stripped the stock completely and refinished it with boiled linseed oil.
Now, if I do my part, this thing has actually turned in a .383" 5 shot group at 100 yards on the indoor range and with the oil finished stock it even looks nice doing it.
Attachment: 9130Scope1.jpg (Downloaded 110 times)
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| Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 12:10 AM |
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OldStuffer
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Sweet, well done.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 01:03 AM |
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kscchtrainer
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Oh yeah, what a lot of people don't realize about the 7.62 X 54R Russian cartridge is that it's really the ballistic equivalent of the US 30-06. I've seen a lot of people claim it's equivalent to the .308 NATO, but that's not really true. Actually, the the bullets are supposed to be .310 to .312 in diameter, depending on what the bore slugs and they don't perform well with .308 diameter bullets at all unless you have one of the Finn re-barreled ones with a real tight bore. Though some of the loading manuals call out the .308 bullet the Russian spec says the bore is supposed to be .3105".
My 91/30 shows it's best accuracy with .311" diameter 177 grain Sierra Match King bullets over the starting load of Hodgdon's Varget and the M44 carbine I used to have shot best with the Hornady #3120 (.312" diameter 150 grain flat base spire point) over Alliant's Reloader-15 powder also using the book starting value.
Using .308 diameter bullets usually degrades the inherent accuracy of most of these old Russky rifles.
The 7.62 X 54R actually outperforms the 30-06 in retained energy at 1000 yards by a few percent. This is due to the better ballistic coefficient of the SovBloc steel core, boat tail FMJ bullets.
Last edited on Sat Nov 7th, 2009 01:13 AM by kscchtrainer
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| Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 01:34 AM |
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MontanaShooter
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I sure can believe it. I have a regular old 91/30 russian rifle and its still thumping the target hard at 800 yards anyways with little elevation on the iron sights. Would love to try further one of these days to, just the limit of my friends marked range currently. You can here the thud of it hitting off in the distance and it cetainly out thumps my 308 with comparable designed bullets to. Im sure someone gonna make fun of that or get offended that i compared it to a 308,but it is the truth and a reasonable method far as im concerned. Bought mine for 65 dollars off the rack in a store when century arms sold a lot of them out here a couple years ago now i wish i woulda bought 2 or 3 cause there so cheap and so much fun. In WWII Russian snipers, if records are honost, made some of the highest kills in the war and probably history. One russian sniper is said to have killed over 500 germans with out ever using scope at ranges over 800 yards with the old mosin 91/30. Just something i read somewhere dont have to believe it you dont want to. Enjoy your 91/30 KSCCHTRAINER i know i sure enjoy mine.
Also you wouldnt believe how many people i have came across that loaded .308 bullets in there 7.62 X 54 and couldnt figure out why they couldnt hit the broad side of the barn.
Last edited on Sat Nov 7th, 2009 01:39 AM by
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| Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 01:57 AM |
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-6
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Trainer, the 54R is one of my favorite rounds. I have a few Mosins of different designs and like all the "flash bulb" shooters. You have done a nice looking job on yours. Do you have a close up of your scope mounting system and a link to the products. I have a couple with bent bolts already, wc
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| Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 03:52 PM |
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kscchtrainer
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-6 wrote: Trainer, the 54R is one of my favorite rounds. I have a few Mosins of different designs and like all the "flash bulb" shooters. You have done a nice looking job on yours. Do you have a close up of your scope mounting system and a link to the products. I have a couple with bent bolts already, wc Here's a link to the mount - http://advancedrifleparts.com/#finnishm39 - the guy didn't have a picture of one mounted on a 91/30 so I let him use pix of mine. I have more invested in the mount and scope than I have in the rifle which I picked up for just under a hundred bucks at Gander Mountain when they still had them last year. The scope is a BSA "Contender" 3-12 X 40 Side Focus that I bought from Midway for $127 and had on a Savage .308 for a while. Here's a link to another company that has an outstanding product for helping with MN accuracy. http://www.crsurplusspring.com The guy, Clyde Treser, came up with this idea and floated it on the surplusrifleforum.com a while back. I was fortunate to be one of the beta testers of this and he's got it really refined now. Makes the floppy mosin trigger into a real nice, almost 2-stage and it sure helps take the slop out. I've got to order another one from him for the project gun I'm about to start. Pix is a closeup of the mount and scope. Attachment: 9130Scope2.jpg (Downloaded 95 times) Last edited on Sat Nov 7th, 2009 04:06 PM by kscchtrainer
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| Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 04:14 PM |
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MontanaShooter
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Thank you for posting that info, ive been thinking of putting a scope on mine but didnt want the long eye relief version with the scope on top the sight base, or to drill and tap any holes.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 8th, 2009 09:10 PM |
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-6
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Many thank yous for the links and pics, wc
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| Posted: Sun Nov 8th, 2009 09:44 PM |
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Charley
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Mine. Built it when Century imported a bunch of mounts and the scopes from the same factory that made them in WWII. Probably had been stored since the 1950s/60s. Wish I had bought a bunch more scopes and mounts, they gone up a bit.
Mine will do consistent MOA, with the best loads going about .80 inches at 100 yards. Favorite bullet, at least for this rifle, is Remington's 180 grain RN Corelok advertised at .311. Every lot I've measured runs .3105, pretty good match for that .310 bore.
Attachment: DSCF0001.JPG (Downloaded 76 times)
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Thecyberguy
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Nice looking rifles you folks have.
OK Guys, so what is the recoil like on these?
It would be compared to what?
I have a C&R and can pick up one of these , but if I am going to have trouble shooting it, I will put money toward something else.
Have a good 'un, Guy
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Charley
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7.62x54R is almost a ballistic twin of the 7.62x51. Recoil is about the same, but rifle is about 8-9 pounds.
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ghrit
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I put 40 rounds of Bulgarian 182 gr milsurp off the bench thru my M44 today, 'bout all I was interested in. The M44 kicks a bit more than a 91, simply because it is lighter. Admittedly, I use a Past pad, but if my scrawny arse can take that much you can, too. My Krag (with 180 gr factory loads) is far more abusive to the shooter, and the M1 is much less so. Since I've never fired an 03, I can't compare that.
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OldStuffer
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Looked at that scope mount, I just don't want to replace the front sight and mount it from there. On the other hand, I found one that mounts to the reciever top (2 screws to drill/tap) and wraps the left side picking up a screw on the left rear of the reciever. Bent bolt mandatory, and I like the look and thought of theirs being welded on. They will weld it on, $58, handle included, if you send them the bolt.
Just my thoughts on how I am thinking of doing mine. :)
Recoil, IMO, is a bit sharper than my .308 BAR, a lot less than the 295gr hunting load in my CVA Bobcat .50 cal. smokepole. ;)
A lot of the recoil is soaked up in the rifle being fairly heavy.
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OldStuffer
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Here's the one I happen to like the looks of, from Rock Solid Industries.
http://www.rocksolidind.com/Mosin%20Nagant.html
$129 with new bolt handle, $100 without.
Ship them the bolt and they will weld handle on for $50 plus return shipping, bolt price included.
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kscchtrainer
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OldStuffer wrote: Here's the one I happen to like the looks of, from Rock Solid Industries.
$129 with new bolt handle, $100 without.
Ship them the bolt and they will weld handle on for $50 plus return shipping, bolt price included.
That one is a good one as well, but it does require you or a gunsmith to drill and tap the receiver to mount it. Properly installed, it's hard to beat, but some people don't care to do that if they want to be able to put the rifle back to near original sometime.
The Advanced Rifle Parts mount is about the same price, but you do have to dig up your own modified bolt body which costs anywhere from around $50 to $85 or $90 depending on where you get it. Your total cost will be about the same for either one.
The main advantage of the one I used (Advanced Rifle Parts) is that you can do it yourself in about an hour and you don't have to drill any holes. It holds zero and the rifle can be restored to original in quite a bit less time with only a screwdriver and a pin punch.
Last edited on Mon Nov 9th, 2009 12:59 AM by kscchtrainer
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OldStuffer
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kscchtrainer wrote:
The main advantage of the one I used (Advanced Rifle Parts) is that you can do it yourself in about an hour and you don't have to drill any holes. It holds zero and the rifle can be restored to original in quite a bit less time with only a screwdriver and a pin punch.
Normally, that is a factor that sits pretty high on my list, just, for whatever reason, probably it being an inexpensive (relatively) import GI battle rifle, that I have zero real "collectability factor" interest in, I'm willing to do some modifications, to make something "personal".
Dad's old trapshooting shotgun, I MUST alter if I intend to shoot it. Stock fit is poor to the point of it belts me in the cheekbone every single upper barrel shot (dad confirmed this in his use), it shoots so high, due to my very high sight-line that it screws up my shotgunning with my others. It's an original, and un-altered/worn Browning Superposed Broadway, and I will not "alter" the original stock, will have to have one made to fit me.
The stock on the Mosin has to be altered anyhow, to clear the bolt handle, either way, some manner of bipod gets mounted up fwd if I turn it into the "varmit sniper" rifle I envision, same crappy shelacked stock to strip, sand, and re-oil-finish, etc, etc. Probably needs the barrel re-crowned too like yours did. I may start tinkering come late winter or something. and may well conspire with you, "pick your brain" as it were for info and opinions of ideas I have. Could ask a ciouple here, but won't hijack the thread.  Another time, another place.
Again, very nice rifle you have made there, hope mine turns out 1/2 as good when it's done. 
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kscchtrainer
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OldStuffer wrote
The stock on the Mosin has to be altered anyhow, to clear the bolt handle,
I wish that ATI or someone would a Sporter type synthetic stock for the Mosins without that right-handed cheekpiece. I'd cut down & re-crown a 91/30 to a 20" barrel length and make a heck of a nice hunting rifle out of it.
On the bolt, if you go to http://www.tngunparts.com and dig around a bit on the site, he's got a pretty nice bolt body with a long, turned down handle for, if I remember right, $49 plus a couple bucks shipping/handling. He's a one man operation with a day job besides, so he's kinda slow getting orders out, but he does get them out.
That is the one I have on my rifle and it needed no inletting to the stock to work. It's made roughly to the same spec that the real Russian "sniper" bolt was. I don't know where he got them made and I don't know if it sticks out too far prior to the turn-down to clear the scope in a "Rock Solid" mount. It does work with the Advanced Rifle Parts "no gunsmithing" mount which is considerably better than the one that ATI has to go along with their "Sporter" stock.
As you know, the MN's headspace on the bolt head locking lugs, so you can swap out the bolt bodies all day long and keep your original internal parts & bolt head without creating safety problems due to headspace or sear engagement. Now, if only Timney would gett off their ass and finish that drop-in trigger for the Mosins, I'd buy one!!
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| Posted: Tue Nov 10th, 2009 01:13 AM |
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OldStuffer
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Have you seen the "spring ball low drag trigger"?
I just found it last night poking arround the net for Mosin Mods.
Looking the link back up now.
Huber Concepts.
http://www.huberconcepts.com/
A quote:
Mosin-Nagant Anti-friction Ball Trigger
To date our trigger has been installed in all variants of the Mosin action and given Match Grade tack driving accuracy. In every case our customers see tighter groups and feel the difference! No other trigger on the market has our patented anti-friction ball design!
The trigger is fully adjustable for creep, over travel, and ball height. Nylock screws and Loctite help keep your settings locked.
http://www.huberconcepts.com/Mosin-Nagant_Trigger_Replacement.htm
Black Teflon or stainless steel.
$80 to $90 (steel higher)
Looks like about a 20 min. instalation or so.
I'm leaning toward this one myself.Last edited on Tue Nov 10th, 2009 01:36 AM by OldStuffer
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| Posted: Tue Nov 10th, 2009 01:35 AM |
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OldStuffer
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Was just looking arround, looks like ATI maybe the only syn-stock maker, and yep, that Monte Carlo cheekpiece on every one of 'em.
Do I take it you'd be a Southpaw?
I'm not a big fan of the looks of a M.C. stock anyhow, besides, it'd REALLY look weird with the bayonet still on. ;) I'll be happy with a nice wood finish on the polish hardwood, Beech if my info is accurate.
I've got a pistol match Sun evening, Mind if I stop by, bring the old thunderstick, and at least let you see what kind of shape the muzzle is in compared to what you found with yours?
Not a coffee drinker tho. ;)
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| Posted: Tue Nov 10th, 2009 02:50 AM |
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kscchtrainer
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OldStuffer wrote: Was just looking arround, looks like ATI maybe the only syn-stock maker, and yep, that Monte Carlo cheekpiece on every one of 'em.
Do I take it you'd be a Southpaw?
I'm not a big fan of the looks of a M.C. stock anyhow, besides, it'd REALLY look weird with the bayonet still on. ;) I'll be happy with a nice wood finish on the polish hardwood, Beech if my info is accurate.
I've got a pistol match Sun evening, Mind if I stop by, bring the old thunderstick, and at least let you see what kind of shape the muzzle is in compared to what you found with yours?
Not a coffee drinker tho. ;)
Sure, Sending you a PM with the address & phone number.
Jim
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