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BULLET CRIMP
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 Posted: Sun May 28th, 2006 09:04 PM
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oughtsix
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Hi, new to forum

Any good hints on crimping? I have been reloading for the last 10 years or so. Hardly any in last 2 years. Retired, moved to Georgia.
Would like to get reloading again. I reload for .44 Mag and .454 Casull, among others. I have had some ignition troubles in the past with the .454. Using new factory primed, I guess WSR primers,  Winchester brass and W296, 10% under Max load.  Using new Starline brass, same bullet, powder charge and CCI 450, small rifle magnum primer. No problem. Several people have told me, it was not enough crimp?????? I have heard terms like "heavy" crimp vs "normal" crimp. I understand the physics of why, a heavy crimp, on .454.  Should I crimp to the point of collapsing case and back off a bit or what??

Thanks to any and all replies!!!!!!






 Posted: Mon May 29th, 2006 05:15 AM
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klallen
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oughtsix wrote: Should I crimp to the point of collapsing case and back off a bit or what??

Yes and don't back off.

If you're not crimping your .454 case mouth to a point where it is, in fact, collapsed or turned into the crimping groove or cannelure of the bullet, it isn't crimped near enough for the cartridge to perform at it's optimum level.  To get the pressures churned up to typical Casull levels, the crimp needs to be aggressive, compared to other rounds.  I tried to take a pic of my .454 load to show the crimp I use but the pic just wouldn't turn out.  Getting a rough measurement with the calipers, it looks to be a crimp just over 0.050" in length.  Of course, working with agressive crimping levels always should be done with care.  Adjusting pressure levels this way is a "baby-step" process.  Working with a chrony is valuable with crimping, as you can monitor velocities and see how they directly relate to the gradual hardening of a crimp.

The crimp I use with my .375 SuperMag and .44 RemMag is far less agressive then that of the .454 Casull, but there is still a definite crush of the case mouth into the cannelure that is clearly visible to the eye.

With either of the two rounds you're loading, if you're not seeing this, you need to work your crimping die down a shade farther till you can see the case mouth turn into the groove.  Once there, then you can fiddle with how hard you want the crimp in relation to the performance with your .454 or possible bullet movement with the .44 .

I'm gonna start load development for a .500 S&W Magnum and a 500 gr. WFN cast bullet tomorrow.  I'd imagine the crimp on that baby's gonna need to be of the aggressive nature, along the lines of the one used with the .454 .  Good luck to ya and, above all, be safe.  >>  klallen 



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 Posted: Mon May 29th, 2006 05:39 AM
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klallen
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Actually, this pic might show the crimps I use a little.  The three on the left are the .375 and the .44 and the .454 with various degrees of "roll" crimp.  Should be able to see the difference between the light crimps of the .375 and .44 compared to the aggressive crimp on the .454 .  Right one's the .50 AE with a snug little "taper" crimp.  Anyway, hope this helps a bit.  >>  klallen 

Attachment: 1.jpg (Downloaded 258 times)



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 Posted: Mon May 29th, 2006 02:58 PM
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bea175
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Win 296 is one powder that requires one of the heavies crimps you can apply to the case and always requires magnum primers. The 454 Cas also requires rifle primers and not pistol primers. I use 296 in my 357 mag's my 454 Cas and my 44 magnum and have never experienced a problem. 296 should never be reduced or  underloaded . If you keep having problems then try H110 almost as good if not better in some weapons.:thumbs:



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 Posted: Mon May 29th, 2006 06:18 PM
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oughtsix
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Hey, thanks guys!!!!!

Great info. I roll my crimp in pretty good, but not that much.Thanks Kallen, for the pic. That shows me where I'm headed. I will start the learning curve!!

Bea175, thanks for the tips. Sounds like excellent advice.

Hope this doesn't sound too stupid!! But, does anyone hand load shotshells for .454 Casull??????

Appreciate all the info guys, THANKS!!!!!!



 Posted: Fri Jun 9th, 2006 04:31 PM
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billt
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If you crimp with the Lee Factory Crimp Die, you won't ever have to worry about collapsing a case. The die is designed to not allow that to happen. I have one in every caliber they make that I reload for. I wish they would make one for the .500 S&W Magnum.  Bill T.



 Posted: Sat Jun 10th, 2006 09:34 PM
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oughtsix
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Thankx billt

I just ordered one from Wiendner' s Shooting supply in Johnson City, TN    $11.20 plus small order charge and shipping.  About $21  total, cheapest I could find!!!!

Appreciate the info!!

                Charlie



 Posted: Sun Jul 30th, 2006 04:31 AM
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I have tested WW296 and H-110 and the H-110 always ignites better. I've even used CCI 300's in my .44 Magnum and with my favorite load (H-110) and they chrono'ed almost identically to the same load with CCI 350's. WW296 is a bit picky especially in the winter season. As for your Casull, I like a Hornady 240gr HP/XTP in between 34-37gr. H-110 with a moderate roll crimp, that should put a smile on your face.



 Posted: Sat Oct 21st, 2006 01:39 PM
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wolfkill
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I have limited knowledge with crimping and cannelures. I have only used a tapered crimp on 180 gr .44 mag loads due to being told to do so. 

Recently while loading up some test loads 220 gr. Sierra 30-06 I noticed something I thought strange when seating the bullets and findly reaching the cannelure. I could actually feel it in the press as the cannelure reached the case mouth. It was a definite reduction in resistance.

I thought I read somewhere the greatest tension is right at the case mouth? I found some of the bullets were indeed too loose, failing my poor man's test of placing them against the end of a soft pine board and pressing inwards. If they moved at all they were marked as single shot test loads only. The brass was once fired factory stuff and I full length resized it. I never had any of my other 30-06 reloads do this and as I say it only happened once I finally seated deep enough to reach the cannelure. (I have experienced the above with .223 reloads occasionally and pulled the bullet and tossed the brass)

I get conflicting info when I read about crimping vs. not crimping. It appears some manf try to discredit Lee crimping dies as worthless and not needed but reading this post it appears one must crimp some caliber loads to achieve utmost potential.

I plan on purchasing a Lee crimping tool to use on above loads based on what I'm reading here, but am I missing something with my brass? Should the bullet be pulled, the brass tossed? Like I say it  was only once fired factory loads.

 



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 Posted: Sat Oct 21st, 2006 02:10 PM
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wolfkill wrote: I have limited knowledge with crimping and cannelures. I have only used a tapered crimp on 180 gr .44 mag loads due to being told to do so. 

Recently while loading up some test loads 220 gr. Sierra 30-06 I noticed something I thought strange when seating the bullets and findly reaching the cannelure. I could actually feel it in the press as the cannelure reached the case mouth. It was a definite reduction in resistance.

I thought I read somewhere the greatest tension is right at the case mouth? I found some of the bullets were indeed too loose, failing my poor man's test of placing them against the end of a soft pine board and pressing inwards. If they moved at all they were marked as single shot test loads only. The brass was once fired factory stuff and I full length resized it. I never had any of my other 30-06 reloads do this and as I say it only happened once I finally seated deep enough to reach the cannelure. (I have experienced the above with .223 reloads occasionally and pulled the bullet and tossed the brass)

I get conflicting info when I read about crimping vs. not crimping. It appears some manf try to discredit Lee crimping dies as worthless and not needed but reading this post it appears one must crimp some caliber loads to achieve utmost potential.

I plan on purchasing a Lee crimping tool to use on above loads based on what I'm reading here, but am I missing something with my brass? Should the bullet be pulled, the brass tossed? Like I say it  was only once fired factory loads. 

 


In my experience, if your not comfortable increasing your COL to get the bullet closer the rifling, then you are best to just keep your brass trimmed .010 under normal (2.484)  and sticking to the normal COL for the bullet you are using, which with that Sierra bullet is 3.270
I wouldn't necessarily use the cannalure as an exact spot to stop, go by you COL, As long as your FL sizing or NS the brass then the tension should be equivalent for an auto loader but you are best to check like you have been. If you continue with problem then you may want to pull out you neck expander out of you FL die and mic it.....

As for the 180 gr. 44 Mag. A taper crimp would be my second choice unless your keeping them right around .44 Special specs. Anything over that and I would move to a roll crimp.



Last edited on Sat Oct 21st, 2006 02:14 PM by 321



 Posted: Sat Oct 21st, 2006 07:18 PM
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drinks
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I crimp .44mag. and .445 SM with the .44-40 Lee collet type crimper, jut a bit of polishing with some 220W/D paper and the die will fit on the slightly larger cases.

Use as is for .44 mag. and add a washer spacer to position the die at the right height for the .445 SM .

Works great for me, get fine ignition with H110 and WC 680, both.



 Posted: Sat Oct 21st, 2006 08:59 PM
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Timberghozt
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wolfkill..check your pm`s:wink::thumbs:

That damned 32-20 and its problems ...plus the aggravating crimp is pissin me off pretty bad..I`d like  to "crimp" its original 1882 Win ass right in the trash barrel...:eek2:



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 Posted: Sat Oct 21st, 2006 09:32 PM
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drinks
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TG;

Before doing anything drastic, try ordering a Lee collet type crimp die from Midway, they make them in .32-20, likely less than $10. Lee #90851

Only seat the bullet with the seat/crimp die,back off at least 1 turn so there is no crimp, then crimp with the collet type crimper, you can get as little or as much as you want with no crumpled cases or messed up necks.

I use the collet crimp dies on all the cartridges I load and never seat and crimp in the same operation.



 Posted: Wed Oct 25th, 2006 10:47 PM
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wolfkill
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http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l89/dmkilbride/misc10-06097.jpg

Ok Lee factory crimp die for 30-06 and 25-06 arrived but I don't get it.

No I haven't placed them in my press yet but I did insert a loaded round into both and how come there is no resistance?

The round goes past the collet. The only thing stopping me is the shoulder of the brass.

I guess the pressure from the treads in the die puts pressure on the collet?

How does this thing work?

And how come my photo's are not posting?
fixed by TG:wink:

 

Last edited on Fri Nov 10th, 2006 02:32 AM by Timberghozt



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 Posted: Wed Oct 25th, 2006 11:23 PM
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What will happen when you place the die in the press is the base of the shell holder will contact the bottom of the die forcing the collet fingers, (those 4 segments at the top of the die), into the side of the case, almost at the top of the mouth, crimping it. By screwing the die into the press you will adjust the amount of crimp you can achieve. When the 4 segments at the top of the die come together, you have then reached maximum crimp. Do not adjust the die any further in because you could possibly damage it. This is what makes the Lee Factory Crimp Die so good. It doesn't put any longitudinal stress on the case itself. It only pushes laterally on the case, thereby preventing it from collapsing like you can do with a roll crimp die if you dial in too much crimp.  Bill T.



 Posted: Thu Oct 26th, 2006 02:02 AM
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wolfkill
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Dooooooohhhhh now I see it.

Let me ask this though. In theory if I have a fair load with my 25-06 won't crimping simply make it better? It will be one less variable I have eliminated in making everything the same.

Are you guys seeing the groups tighten similar to bullet seating depth? You experiment to find just the right amount of crimp the bullet, powder combination likes? 

Last edited on Thu Oct 26th, 2006 02:16 AM by wolfkill



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 Posted: Thu Oct 26th, 2006 01:02 PM
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The crimp, no crimp argument still rages on with no clear winner. The main reason to crimp with heavy recoiling revolver rounds is to prevent the bullets from pulling out in recoil, there by tieing up the gun. Also some do it with lever action rifle rounds to prevent them from pushing back into the case in the magazine. Some claim a good firm crimp will assure better ignition when loading very slow, hard to ignite powders. In a bolt action gun it isn't really necessary, but many still crimp.  Bill T.



 Posted: Fri Nov 10th, 2006 02:28 AM
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Timberghozt
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Don,I got back to working on that 32-20.Hopefully it is right now.Gonna shoot it again this weekend since I have a little time.It is accurate little thing to be an antique lever action.I`ll let ya know how it works this round...:thumbs:



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 Posted: Fri Nov 10th, 2006 04:07 AM
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drinks
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TG;
Great, let us know how you do.

I have  a 1910 , '92 , in .44-40, it has problems with a tight chamber and a large groove diameter, but I still think the '92 has the smoothest action of all the lever actions.
If you need any other assistance, please PM me, I am ready to help!
I have just started working on the .223, a Handirifle, with the new 1/9 pitch .
It may have been a mistake to get the 1/9 rifling I really prefer cast bullets over jacketed and I seem to be having problems when I exceed 2500fps with cast bullets.
I have some 55gr and 64gr jacketed bullets and shall be working with them further.
What loads are you using with 55 to 64gr , jacketed bullets in .223?

Last edited on Fri Nov 10th, 2006 04:10 AM by drinks



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