| Posted: Sat Jan 17th, 2009 03:25 AM |
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25souper
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Thinking of getting a lever action riffle in ether 45-70 or the 450 marlin and was wondering if there was any reason to get the 450. With the riffles being new and hand loading both is there any reason why the 45-70 can not keep up with the 450? Just a thought.
Thanks.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17th, 2009 03:29 PM |
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wheezengeezer
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the 450 is the ballistic twin of what the 45/70 can do if loaded to the same pressures.if you dont handload,the 450 can be the ticket.ammo will be less available at best and more expensive.if you do handload,i am sure that 45/70 brass is more widely avaliable at a lower cost.you cant make 450 brass from anything else.the 450 is an answer to a problem that only non handloaders have.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17th, 2009 06:53 PM |
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25souper
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That is what I was thinking. I was thinking of getting a good brush gun and I believe that it would be hard to beat ether one of these, and in a new marlin the 45-70 ( in my mind) should be able to do 450 vel. and pressures. It would be something that I would like to cast bullets for. Looking at the short version btw.
Thoughts or comments on this would be helpful
Thanks!
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17th, 2009 07:02 PM |
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Gunpoor
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Souper, the 450 was brought out for the guys that don't handload. The older rifles chambered in 45/70 won't handle the higher pressures that some of the newer rifles can digest and the factory ammo is pretty anemic. They are very similar ballistically when loaded to full potential, so either chambering will serve well since you roll your own.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17th, 2009 10:12 PM |
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Charley
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If there is no danger of slipping a cartridge loaded to 1895 Marlin pressure levels into an M1873 trapdoor, I'd suggest getting the .45/70. More and cheaper brass, as pointed out.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18th, 2009 01:31 AM |
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25souper
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No danger in that happening, only one gun around here that is a 45 is a 450 marlin and it only comes around at deer season. I like the fact that the brass can be had for the 45-70 and I just could not figure out why it could not be just as potent as the 450 is if it is hand loaded and it looks like my thoughts were right, just wanted some input from people that know more about the 45's than I do.
Thanks!!!
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11th, 2009 06:28 AM |
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Mickey Rat
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Although the 450 Marlin & the 45-70 can be loaded to the same levels, DO NOT USE 450 load data for 45-70! The brass is not the same volume and is potentialy dangerous. Use 45-70 data and work it up to your rifle.
That said, I have a Trapdoor, a Siamese Mauser, an 1895 Cowboy and a 1895G. I use nickel cases with lead bullets for Trapdoor only. I use only brass cases and Spitzers (Barnes) for the Siamese and brass cases and flat nose bullets or Hornady Leverevevolution 325 Spitzers for the levers.
My CAREFULLY worked up loads for the Siamese exceed some 458 WIN MAG loads with no signs of pressure. The heavy target barrel is probably why. Recoil is extream, but accuracy is great.
Leverevolution ammo is accurate and effective. I use it in my 30-30's, 444 Marlin and 45-70 for hunting.
I broke down and got a Mark X Mauser in 458 WIN MAG. It is best for the heavy 458 loads. The new 450/400 3" NE double is a thumper, too.
Just rember that hot rodding loads IS DANGEROUS but can be done carefully in very small steps. Be sure to do your hot loads in summer heat. Heat tends to boost pressures, so a hot winter load might well be dangerous in the summer.
My Siamese Mauser is the only rifle I own that likes the hotter loads. All my other rifles like more sedate levels.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11th, 2009 10:04 PM |
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miestro_jerry
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I have an 1895 in 45-70. I can get brass and bullets from many, many sources, but with the 450 Marlin you can't the vaiety that you can with the 45-70.
As far as reloading, There isn't much I can't do with my 45-70 that the 450 Marlin can do. My 1895 was made in 2008, so it is not old rifle. Plus there is a lot of research by many people and groups in to reloading the 45-70.
The question becomes what do you want to do with this rifle?
Jerry
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11th, 2009 11:40 PM |
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Ranch 13
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The 450 was brought out to be the factory equivilent of what folks were handloading the 45-70 to. The only reason for the belt is to keep it from getting chambered in an 1873 trapdoor rifle or some similar older gun.
If you are a handloader, and have a modern made 45-70 leveraction you can make it do anything the 450 can , plus some.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29th, 2009 03:20 AM |
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Irish Mike
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25Souper, I would tell you to stay with the old standby, the 45//70 caliber as it has worked for a long long time. I have one and reloading it is a snap of the fingers. There are lots of bullets to choose from nowdays and plenty of factory ammo to boot.
You might want to give those Hornady folks a look see, as they have that new Leverevolution ammo, which makes that 45/70 do a heck of a dance routine across the open fields. There ammo is a little pricey but Shucks, so is diesel fuel nowdays.
Last edited on Sun Mar 29th, 2009 03:21 AM by
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29th, 2009 02:35 PM |
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miestro_jerry
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I use a Ranch Dog 460-350 CB with Gas Check in my 45-70. What it can't take down in my area isn't native to this area. Excellent bullet for a CB and you can push these bullets really hard.
Jerry
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29th, 2009 03:31 PM |
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klallen
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if it were a decision i was making, i'd probably lean towards the .450 . the .45-70's been done to death. doesn't mean its a bad cartridge in general or worse then the .450 . i just like the idea of working with cartridges that are less used either because of obsoletion or newness. they're both gonna do the same thing in performance. i'd go with the new cartridge. goodl uck with the choice.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29th, 2009 05:26 PM |
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wheezengeezer
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Ranch 13 wrote: The 450 was brought out to be the factory equivilent of what folks were handloading the 45-70 to. The only reason for the belt is to keep it from getting chambered in an 1873 trapdoor rifle or some similar older gun.
If you are a handloader, and have a modern made 45-70 leveraction you can make it do anything the 450 can , plus some.
adding to that,the reason for the extended belt is to prevent chambering in any bottleneck belted magnum
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29th, 2009 05:40 PM |
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wheezengeezer
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Mickey Rat wrote: Although the 450 Marlin & the 45-70 can be loaded to the same levels, DO NOT USE 450 load data for 45-70! The brass is not the same volume and is potentialy dangerous. Use 45-70 data and work it up to your rifle.
true that the volume is different,but the 450 has less.looking at the hodgdon website many 45/70 loads with the same powder and bullet require a heavier charge for the same velocity.both being in lever rifles.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29th, 2009 05:59 PM |
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miestro_jerry
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One of the things I like about the 45-70 is that fact brass is easy to find, I think the 450 Marlin is basically using Hornady as a single source. Other companies may pickup on this cartridge, but these days I find that we are trying to find sources and stock up on brass.
I did find that Trident (don't know who they are) sells 450 Marlin commercial reloads, 100 rounds for $125.00, find that quality 45-70 is about the same price range.
To me, the 45-70 gives me a good cartridge to reload and shoot. I do shoot some Leverlution ammo from time to time, but the brass is slightly shorter than the other manufactures out there.
I can buy new brass for about 42 cents each for the 45-70 in 500 quantity, but for a box of 20 it is about $14.00 and the 450 Marlin is a box of 50 for $44.00 or 88 cents each.
It is up to you, I am just expressing what I know and how much this could cost to feed.
Jerry
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29th, 2009 08:21 PM |
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fryboy
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there are 3 load levels for the 45/70
weak trapdoors
lever actions( including the marlins)
and ruger single shots
the rugers handle much higher pressure than the rest -period(look in any good reloading manual)
plz do not try to load lever actions to the ruger levels ! IMO this is where the 450 shines ,i dont own one but i have shot it sure it thumped but it wasnt bad at all,yes factory loads are loaded to lever action levels for the 450 to go above that ..well it is ur fingers not mine ,45/70 brass is also weaker than 450 marlin brass another aspect that bears consideration ,factory ammo for the 45/70 must be loaded for the weakest action that a shooter mite slip it into ( btw ? black powder loads are fun in 45/70 and thump ! ) i love the marlin lever actions and the stainless ported one is sweet!being as i have a 45/70 ( or so ) i'd opt for the 450 but both use the same bullets ( and if a 45/70 can be loaded hot in a ruger think how hot the 450 can be bumped up in the stronger action ...
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29th, 2009 09:12 PM |
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Irish Mike
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Fryboy, now who on mothers green earth hunts with a single shot nowdays I ask? Only those who get paid by T/C Arms company to promote that blessed BP gun that Jim Shockey shoots and never has to clean right/
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29th, 2009 09:32 PM |
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miestro_jerry
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I shoot T/C Contenders and have the 45-70 Barrel, which can be loaded hotter than what my Marlins can handle. Plus I can use bullets that are not flat nosed.
In my experience, single shots really do show the skills of the marksman. One shot, One Kill.
Jerry
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29th, 2009 09:37 PM |
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fryboy
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Irish Mike wrote:
Fryboy, now who on mothers green earth hunts with a single shot nowdays I ask? Only those who get paid by T/C Arms company to promote that blessed BP gun that Jim Shockey shoots and never has to clean right/
sum guys have all the luck  umm btw ? the single shot has made a dramatic reappearance since our forefathers won the war of 1776 ,sadly in truth much has been ado about spray and pray and while a back up shot is nice ....if the first shot is right there isnt a need for a second shot ..actually many company's make a single shot ruger several others handi rifles etc etc dakota arms had one i thought , in truth tc between the bp's and the encores and contender/g2's rock ! and a clip full of ammo makes no differnce if every one is a miss ,i've used both and prefer a controlled feed bolt action and i bet that just about all black powder shooters ermm hunters wish we got paid for it ( or at least never had to clean the stuff )i will say that in my personal opinion that if i dont believe that first gentle squeeze will humanely kill what i'm fixin to shoot i dont shoot. how humanely or sporting others hunt is entirely up to them my ethics are my own , i have seen deer reduced to coyote bait by people with semi auto's and lever actions ,i admit that i have no desire to trophy hunt ,horns dont taste very good nor do they cook worth a dang  i'd kind of like to have enough decent meat to eat ,and unbeknown to most who hunt for trophies alone they are driving the critters to smaller proportions( survival of the fittest etc is out the door when man interrupts with guns) and by only taking the largest he leaves nothing but the smallest weakest to breed even further reducing the critter's size etc ,if u have never tried hunting with a single shot u should at least try ( u mite be amazed) btw ? i have no sponsors no tv programs and i cant deny that the 45/70 can be loaded to higher pressure in the rugers than any other type of action ( barring bolt actions of course such as the mauser) btw if u dont hit it with that first shot how much better are 4-30 more misses gonna make it ?btw ? how many times do u pull the trigger for each shot ? i liken bp shootin to reloadin the case in the field ( and the original handloaders )
edit for jerry ..
love the thompsons and yes they do stress being allu can be , reloading them isnt that slow especially with rimmed calibers but i'm very leery of loadingthe 45/70 hot in tc's most reloading data i see for them usually show between the trap door and the lever action levels ,i havent pushed mine ( nor the handi rifle) yet and bp is a solid thumper with cast 405's i usually load the 300's and 350's for hunting but it is nice to load down for the women and kids and they love the fact that it is a huge cartridge( helps keep'em interested )Last edited on Sun Mar 29th, 2009 09:46 PM by fryboy
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29th, 2009 10:03 PM |
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miestro_jerry
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Fryboy,
I have decelerator grips on my Contenders, when loading hotter, it is the recoil into the hands and arms that is the immediate bother. But for long term use of hot loads, you can get frame stretching, but J.D. Jones used to load some really Dang hot loads in his Contenders for Rhino and Elephant type hunting. Now he bases his hunting barrels on the Encore frames.
The 444 Marlin Contender can take hotter loads than the 45-70, the question is, are you big enough to handle them? Plus my 444M barrel is an SSK barrel, not a T/C one.
A high school student, want to shoot my Super 14 in 444 Matlin, he was shooting 44 Mags that he loaded. Before I could say anything he changed his stance while pulling the trigger and the gun came back on him hard. If he had not been wearing safety glasses, he would have lost an eye.
But back to the subject, the 450 Marlin has some advantages and disadvantages. T/C does Make a 450 Marlin barrel for their Encore line.
Jerry
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