| Posted: Sat Apr 11th, 2009 07:31 PM |
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Chubbo
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Hi, All:
I have been using my lyman 55 powder measure, to measure loads of Trail Boss powder, for use in .45LC revolver & rifle loads. Is this the best way to measure this powder or should it be measured by volume like Black powder?
Chubbo
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| Posted: Sat Apr 11th, 2009 09:02 PM |
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Ranch 13
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I would hope to hell you are using a scale with the powder measure to see what the charge you are throwing actually weighs. Trail Boss is a very fast burning smokeless powder that could create some excessive pressures in large cases without carefully weighing the charges. Also the stuff is not to be overly compressed as breaking up the little donuts creates some really erratic burn rates.
Black powder is NOT thrown in volume, black powder charges are ALWAYS decrcibed in GRAINS weight.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 13th, 2009 06:40 PM |
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fryboy
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Ranch 13 wrote:
I would hope to hell you are using a scale with the powder measure to see what the charge you are throwing actually weighs. Trail Boss is a very fast burning smokeless powder that could create some excessive pressures in large cases without carefully weighing the charges. Also the stuff is not to be overly compressed as breaking up the little donuts creates some really erratic burn rates.
Black powder is NOT thrown in volume, black powder charges are ALWAYS decrcibed in GRAINS weight.
ummmmm black is described in grains but is usually thrown by c.c.'c ( cubic centimeters ie: volume) the black power measures one buys are set to grains ( theoreticly )mine if i weigh usually weigh 1-3 grains more and one is supposed to use the same setting for the substitutes like pyrodex 777 etc ,only by measuring the volume in weight should the subs be actually loaded per grain, a link that will perhaps help with the substitutes
http://www.chuckhawks.com/difference_black_powders.htm
when reading down the volumetric myth is debunked
a link to googling trail boss( btw i put akin but not related to aa 5744)
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=trail+boss+powder&btnG=Search
and finally the link to imr's page about trail boss( along with their links to loading data )
http://www.imrpowder.com/trailboss.html
i have to agree that tho we may load by volume one should always recheck with a scale for smokeless loads and check again quite often during the process
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(happy shootin'-the best way to get empty brass!)
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| Posted: Mon Apr 13th, 2009 06:55 PM |
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Ranch 13
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Chuck Hawks is about as wrong as he can get when it comes to black powder.Even the brass powder measures used in muzzleloading rifles will throw extremely close to the grain settings marked on the staff, when using 2f poured from a horn leveled off and weighed. Try it out sometime. I did and even the cheap imported from Taiwan thing I bought in KMart 35 years ago throws the grains marked.
The confusion with volume comes from the subs themselves. Pyrodex, was the first and the rest have kept the same principal, is designed to be used in a volume equivilent of bp. In other words if you have a powder measure set to throw 70 grs of 2f black, then all you need do is leave the measure set as is, and pour the thing full of RS. Hence theres' where this volume bullspit comes from. The actual charge of pyrodex rs will weight quite a bit less than the 70 gr charge of bp. I don't have the chart from Hogdons handy, but actual weight of that volumetric charge of rs is something like 57 grs. Up until sometime after the introduction of the fake crap black powder charges were always and ever expressed in grains weight, and volume was something you adjusted on the radio.
I did some dilly dalli stuff with App and shockeys gold, but not much as the accuracy was crap , billowiing clouds of white smoke were a nuisuance and the list of strikes against it goes on.
Have shot quite a few cans of trailboss , and while its a handy powder for some things, if you look at the pressure data from IMR , the crap could be extremely dangerous when you work at the top end, and especially in anything larger than a straightwalled handgun cartridge. It's burn rate is just the first notch slower than bullseye, and while its bulk can cover up some misuse, not weighing charges of the stuff could bring a seriuous catastrophic event.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 13th, 2009 07:55 PM |
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fryboy
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i have tried the "wieghing the charges" the best one i have is an old old one that i have no idea who made ,i have a little one ( 5-30 grns) i bought from dixie many years ago that is perhaps the second closest ,my traditions one is off the most ( 20-120 )when set at 90 it wieghs 93 ,the spout measures on my flask were cut off to wiegh what was required so i cant recall the original measurements ,my thompson is perhaps the closest after the old one that is ,i have noted that the bigger the charge the bigger the possible error but in truth with front stuffers that doesnt matter as much as consistency btw chuck didnt write that article tho it is on his site  it was scribed by randy wakeman tho u can attribute it to chuck if u like , i threw it out as another opinion besides mine ,there is some logic to it altho i'll be the first to admit that 100 people could do the same test and come up with 101 different results ....
the trail boss is a smokeless powder so smokeless rules apply but if every charge had to be wieghed ie; no volume measuring we never would of had powder measures nor the successful lee dippers once a dipper is calibrated to a powder it is set for life and will never get out of adjustment ,every powder has a volumetric density ,it may change from lot to lot tho ( part of the reason why we are urged to drop back and work up when changing any component of a load )i use quite a few ball powders and short kernels because they meter better thru my measures but yes i check and recheck with a scale as i go along ( tho it seems kind of waste of time with some of them i still do it -good habits are worthy )if one powder fits all they would of never made the sum 200+ we now have as well as the original grades of black, i like the aa5744 and the fact that the savage ml was designed with it in mind ,the only time i weigh black anymore is for loading cartridges,44-40's are fun with it ditto for 45/70 and 30-30 quite a differnt thump IMO
again in answer to the original question using a measure is adequate once set to the proper grainage ( yup by volume) trail boss is nothing like black powder or the subs,from the link on the trail boss
"Trail Boss is designed specifically for low velocity lead bullet loads suitable for Cowboy Action shooting. It is primarily a pistol powder, but has some application in rifle. It is based on a whole new technology which allows very high loading density, good flow through powder measures, stability in severe temperature variation and most importantly, additional safety to the handloader. "
anything can be misused or improperly applied , i have made many "scoops" from differnt things ,my fav is a brass case with a soldered on brass handle but i surely wouldnt try loading my 50 scoop with trail boss as it is set for black and the trail boss is a smokeless powder,my next fav is cowhorn tips we cut off the young calves hollowed out to the desired amount ,the lee scoops are accurate enough "if" properly used and usually with the loading data they provide are safe enough ( lee surely protects it's self from lawsuits )and i am quite certian that many a reloader started out thusly without a scale ( i did ) but directions must be followed and warnings heeded be it black or smokeless...btw ? a scale was what i deemed my first serious reloading purchase then came presses and dies rarely use the lee hand sets now but i still have them ,i loved and miss the old target ones btw ( complete with a neck reamer and a real primer seater )
____________________
(happy shootin'-the best way to get empty brass!)
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