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  • Bottomed out

    I just put a new Vortex Razor HD II on my Savage 10/110 BA .338 Lapua. Took it to the range today to zero it. Started at 35 yds just to get on paper. It shot 2 ft high. Went to adjust down and discovered elevation turret wont go any lower. It was bottomed out. I could adjust it up all day but not down. I got L/R dialed in continued to hold down to get on paper. Knowing I was at least centered horizontally, I took it out to 50 yds. Now im shooting even higher. Holding down 25 mil. L/R still good. Took it to 100 yds to see what would happen. Now holding down 35 mil to hit center target. At this point, 5 rds on paper, I decided enough, there is clearly an issue. I double checked torque on all my fasteners. 40 in/lb on ring base 18 in/lb on ring cap. I had checked rail screws prior to mounting rings and scope, GTG. I began to wonder if recoil had damaged the scope somehow with it turned all the way down on initial shot. Sure wish I would have centered the turret beforehand but, God only knows where the bullet would have ended up. Regardless, it should not be shooting this high. I suspect an issue with rings. I am using (high) size rings from Vortex. They are $149.00 precision rings. I didnt lap them, they are not "supposed" to need it. I tried medium rings and the objective bell was just touching the front rail so I went with higher rings. I believe the rail is a 20 MOA rail. If the scope were too high, I would think the shot would be low.
    I had to pack up and get to work so, I havent had a chance to do any more with it. Any suggestions or thoughts on issue? What might be the first thing to look at?

  • #2
    20 MOA rail is not leaving you room to get 100yd zero. 20moa is about 21" high @ 100yds and close to zero @800yds.
    I question holding 35mils low to hit @100yds, you sure it's not 3.5 mils? 6 mils is aprox. 20 MOA. You should only have something like 10 mils +/- visible on your reticle.

    My suggestion, without forcing it, count turns of elevation, from where you're at, to end of travel and back it back off half of that. You should have aprox 30-33 mils (90-100 MOA) of total elevation adjustment available, aprox 5 mils or 15MOA per revolution is pretty normal. Get your reticle centered in vertical travel, before you fire another shot. When you go out to shoot it again, take target that's tall enough to get you three feet or so height available, use aiming point six inches from bottom of target and fire single shot, you should be on paper and probably somewhere near two foot high. Adjust your scope to drop 3 mils or 10 MOAs, your shot should move down ten inches, if it goes up, you should still be on paper and know you're reading turret wrong. When it moves right direction, adjust it another 3 mil. or 10 moa step and fine tune from there.

    Personally I'd leave it a foot high @ 100yds, that should get you on paper, to zero it @ 600yds.
    Columbia Falls, MT
    If we don’t speak out against the infringements of today, it will weaken our ability to stop the next infringements.
    Since it took 26th Amendment to change voting age, expanding rights under 14th Amendment. Why doesn't same requirement, to restrict rights, extend to 2nd Amendment?


    NRA Benefactor Life, NRA Ring of Freedom, NRA-ILA Partner in Freedom, GOA Patriot, SAF, Oath Keepers

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    • #3
      Thanks Robert. You are correct, its MOA not Mils, that was my mistake. The numbers otherwise are correct. Centering the turret and seeing where point of impact ended up was exactly what I was going to do in the morning. I had to question though, why didnt it do this with my Nightforce NXS 5.5-22×56? Same rifle, rail, ring height etc, just larger tube (1 mm bigger on the Vortex) and slighly less magnification at max range. The Nightforce had plenty of elevation adjustment left both ways.
      I have considered getting rid of the 2 tier rail and go to a single rail so I could use medium sights. Even if it were still 20 MOA rail, would getting the scope lower on medium rings help?

      Comment


      • #4
        Savage 10/110 BA .338LM comes with 20 MOA rail installed, if you added 20 MOA rail, for your two rail system, you have 40 MOA to deal with. 40 MOA would match, elevation wise, pretty close to what you're getting. I went to 40 moa on 308, to get scope centered @ 1,000, but unless you're going to mile, you don't need 40moa on 338LM.
        Columbia Falls, MT
        If we don’t speak out against the infringements of today, it will weaken our ability to stop the next infringements.
        Since it took 26th Amendment to change voting age, expanding rights under 14th Amendment. Why doesn't same requirement, to restrict rights, extend to 2nd Amendment?


        NRA Benefactor Life, NRA Ring of Freedom, NRA-ILA Partner in Freedom, GOA Patriot, SAF, Oath Keepers

        Comment


        • #5
          I use the Burris XTR Signature rings on my BA. It comes with inserts. Per Burris: "With these inserts, it is possible to make 0, 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 or 40 MOA of cant in the scope mount."

          Mine have never slipped.
          Friends don't let friends shoot factory ammo.

          Continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential.
          -Winston Churchill

          Comment


          • #6
            +10 Golong, I have them on 3 rifles so I can get all of my elevation adjustment for long range shooting. The XTRs are very robust, they will not move once you lock them down, and they do not leave any marks on your scope when you remove it.

            Comment


            • #7
              Unfortunately, I didnt get back to the range today. I realize from everyones responses that I really know very little about MOA and using a reticle to its potential. If I knew more, I might have known what the issue was to begin with. Thats why I truly appreciate forums like this and the friendly advice I get from everyone here. Thank you all for taking the time to help. That having been said, Im doing alot of study on the subject. I have subsequently learned what a 20 MOA rail is actually for.
              Robert, I did not add more angle to the rail. I was referring to the two level rail Savage has on the rifle. The portion of rail out over the barrel is lower than the rail on the receiver even tho, it is one piece. I believe its designed to allow additional optics in front of the scope such as night vision. I was thinking of replacing the existing rail with a shorter rail as to eliminate the forward portion, giving me clearance to lower the scope. I think before I make that decision, I need to stretch this rifle out to the kind of distance it was intended for. I think once I do, I will find no need to change the rail or scope height.
              I need to work on my ability to post pictures and links. I realize it would be less work for all of you, not having to look everything up, just to see what I'm talking about.
              Thanks again for sharing your knowledge and having patience with someone who is just starting to learn the sport.

              Comment


              • #8
                That is what is so good with HB. There is a lot of knowledge and experience and persons willing to share without putting people down.
                Did you attach the rear scope ring on the rail on the receiver and front scope ring on the rail above the barrel? That is the impression I am getting?
                "The United States Marine Corps is a drug and I am a recovering addict."

                "American by birthright… U.S. MARINE by the Grace of GOD!"

                "And on the 8th day God created Marines and like fish, we came from the sea!"

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                • #9
                  DM, The scope is attached completely on the upper rail. Im waiting on confirmation from Savage on whether or not it is in fact a 20 MOA and if it is, how they designate that. All of the 20 MOA rails ive seen have it stamped on one of the lugs on top of the rail. I didnt see that on this one. I was under the impression that all of the 110 series had a 20 MOA rail. Since I didnt have an issue with the Nightforce on this rifle, I assumed this scope wouldnt have an issue either. Hopefully I will have some time tonight when I get off work to pull the scope and take a second look.
                  I also sent an e-mail to Vortex right after I got home from the range. Im waiting on their response but, I suspect it will be the same as Robert's.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Ok, got a response back from Vortec. They stated im probably hitting the zero stop. I was reluctant to adjust the zero below what it was set at because of the indicator on the left side of the scope. The indicator moves out in relation to number of full turns the turret is adjusted up or down. When all the way up, the indicator is all the way out with three lines showing. When all the way down, indicator is retracted fully, no lines showing. Basically I didnt want to try adjusting it past the limits of the scope and really screw it up. I know it would probably be covered under warranty, but still.
                    I found a video on U-tube by Vortex, explaining stop adjustment on the L-tec turret. It now seems much easier than I understood it to be in the manual.
                    I realize 100 or even 200 yd is a waste of this rifles potential but, I prefer to walk it out rather than try to hit paper at 600 yd right out of the gate.
                    I feel kinda stupid that this may be the solution.
                    I wonder how many warranty claims they write up to "bone head behind the trigger"?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      They responded back pretty quick. Nice to know.
                      Are there any lines above the center Reticle you can use for shooting 100-200-300 yards with.

                      On my AR I must use the space between center and the next lower line for my 100 yard and then center is 185 yard.

                      Just saying you could manipulate your shooting habits.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Zero stop makes perfect sense, they would have it set, @ factory, to allow zeroing with flat rail and 20MOA rail would require bit more, than an extra revolution. If you have smart phone, there's many free or low cost apps available. From JBM my favorite online ballistics calculator. http://www.jbmballistics.com/ballist...software.shtml I would start with http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin...j_simp-5.1.cgi and once you get basics, move to more advanced ones, on JBM's site.
                        Columbia Falls, MT
                        If we don’t speak out against the infringements of today, it will weaken our ability to stop the next infringements.
                        Since it took 26th Amendment to change voting age, expanding rights under 14th Amendment. Why doesn't same requirement, to restrict rights, extend to 2nd Amendment?


                        NRA Benefactor Life, NRA Ring of Freedom, NRA-ILA Partner in Freedom, GOA Patriot, SAF, Oath Keepers

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by swampratt View Post
                          They responded back pretty quick. Nice to know.
                          Are there any lines above the center Reticle you can use for shooting 100-200-300 yards with.

                          On my AR I must use the space between center and the next lower line for my 100 yard and then center is 185 yard.

                          Just saying you could manipulate your shooting habits.
                          If you have mil scope, 3 mil hold under, will get you close or at least on paper @ 500yd and 4 mil hold under, will get you close @ 600yds, with 300gr SMK load.
                          Columbia Falls, MT
                          If we don’t speak out against the infringements of today, it will weaken our ability to stop the next infringements.
                          Since it took 26th Amendment to change voting age, expanding rights under 14th Amendment. Why doesn't same requirement, to restrict rights, extend to 2nd Amendment?


                          NRA Benefactor Life, NRA Ring of Freedom, NRA-ILA Partner in Freedom, GOA Patriot, SAF, Oath Keepers

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            swampratt, Both Vortex and Nightforce have replied in a speedy manner to inquiries. Great customer service.
                            All of my rifle experience was military so, iron sights to 300 yds was it. Scored expert all but once. I can usually hit what im aimin at. The world of scopes, however, and long range are completely new to me. I havent had enough range time with them to form too many habits, least of all good ones.
                            Robert, I went with MOA, it seemed the easiest for me when figuring hold overs etc. Should be about 10.5 moa hols under at 500 yd if my math is correct. I saved the jbmballistics on my phone, i'll dabble with that at my earliest convenience but before I hit the range again. Thanks.
                            I had been on a waiting list for a long range shooting class. By the time a spot opened up, I had traded my 110 .308 for the Lapua. What can I say. Kid in a candy store. Cant shoot larger than 300 win mag in the class so i'm back on the wait list. I could have used my LR308 but didnt think that was a very suitable rifle for the class. Im hoping the Tikka I just ordered will work out nicely tho.

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                            • #15
                              This must be reticle you have. MOA/MOA works as well as MRAD/MRAD, when it becomes hard is MRAD reticle and MOA turrets.
                              Click image for larger version

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                              Columbia Falls, MT
                              If we don’t speak out against the infringements of today, it will weaken our ability to stop the next infringements.
                              Since it took 26th Amendment to change voting age, expanding rights under 14th Amendment. Why doesn't same requirement, to restrict rights, extend to 2nd Amendment?


                              NRA Benefactor Life, NRA Ring of Freedom, NRA-ILA Partner in Freedom, GOA Patriot, SAF, Oath Keepers

                              Comment

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