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  • Muzzleloading German SxS

    I have a friend who would like to sell a German made Caplock Muzzle Loading SxS. It is very ornately carved and outfitted and was part of his parents estate. He is a shooter but never saw the gun fired in his lifetime and basically has no interest in it. I believe, based on photos, that it is Damascus barrelled but also shows some corrosion inside the muzzle. It may not be safe to shoot. The problem is that he has no idea as to its worth. I'll see if I can post some photos. If any of you have an opinion as to value I'd love to hear it. RD

    Click image for larger version

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    Every once in a while in life we need a policeman, a lawyer, a doctor and a preacher. We need a farmer three times a day, every day.

    Et Canis Manducare Canis Mundi

  • #2
    Barrel rib.

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    Every once in a while in life we need a policeman, a lawyer, a doctor and a preacher. We need a farmer three times a day, every day.

    Et Canis Manducare Canis Mundi

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    • #3
      Stock Bottom view. Note the extreme cast to the stock. If you could see this blown up the face is a very nicely carved dog.
      Click image for larger version

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      Every once in a while in life we need a policeman, a lawyer, a doctor and a preacher. We need a farmer three times a day, every day.

      Et Canis Manducare Canis Mundi

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      • #4
        And the overall gun.
        Click image for larger version

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        Every once in a while in life we need a policeman, a lawyer, a doctor and a preacher. We need a farmer three times a day, every day.

        Et Canis Manducare Canis Mundi

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        • #5
          Oh, Forgot the locks.

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          Every once in a while in life we need a policeman, a lawyer, a doctor and a preacher. We need a farmer three times a day, every day.

          Et Canis Manducare Canis Mundi

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          • #6
            Even if just a wall hangar, would make a wonderful piece of art.
            "The definition of madness is doing the same thing twice, and expecting a different result." The HIVES

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            • #7
              Boy, it does have a lot of cast off! Can you post the name on the rib? I can't make it out. Is there any stampings anywhere? Some German cities had what could be loosely described as a proof law long before Germany was a nation as we know it today.

              Value....whew. Just about what you two can agree on. Not long ago, a few months, I bought a Manton, 16 bore, ML, double gun in its original mahogany case and in absolutely stunning condition. It too had Damascus barrels in excellent condition, we believe it has the original ramrod and a few tools and bottles that I am convinced are period correct but not original to the gun. I gave $1100 for it and I thought that was a heck of a deal. That mine is shootable was never in question but it lacks even a smidgen of the decoration that one has. That one looks as if it mostly needs a darn good cleaning. I hope the corrosion isn't too bad. They are a hoot to use!!!

              I watched for a long time to find a 16 and always expected it would be German and thought it odd the one I ended up with is British. Anyway, watching for one for close to 10 years, those I saw similar to that one were anywhere from around $500 for one that might be usable up to $1500+...and + a great deal more...for one that was assuredly shootable. Saw one the other day for over 5K but it was....flippin' AS NEW!!!! Man, that was a piece.
              "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools". Romans 1:22

              "Those who fail to study history are condemned to repeat it"

              NRA Benefactor,

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              • #8
                9.3X75R, Thank you for your opinion. I have not actually seen or held this gun. I don't even know the gauge. The gun belongs to a co-worker who is selling off parts of his parent's estate. Just not enough room for everything. I will see if I can get a hand on it and look for proof marks etc.

                I just bought a beatiful Roll Top Desk from the same estate. This gun hung over that desk for this guy's entire life. First at his grandparents house and then at his parents. RD
                Every once in a while in life we need a policeman, a lawyer, a doctor and a preacher. We need a farmer three times a day, every day.

                Et Canis Manducare Canis Mundi

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                • #9
                  I now have my hands on this gun. It is a 20 Gauge!!!! Using my calipers the muzzles measure .620 +/- at the very end and .612 as far as my caliper can reach into the barrel. It has a hooked breech. Removing the barrel through pin from underneath a hidden thimble and removing the forend from the gun allows the barrel set to rotate upward from the action. The locks are very stiff but movable. One of the hammers is missing the main screw that attaches it to the lock shaft. Both nipples have been hammered flat from dry firing over the years. They have square bases that could possibly be turned out. However, the under rib is corroded/rusted very very thin, running for about 4 inches just behind the muzzle. I can actually slid a post it note through underneath the under rib spanning both barrels, underneath the forend there is some heavy rusting along the under rib and barrels. Further back, just under the chamber area there is some very fine green verdigris between the under lug and barrels. I'm of the opinion that this gun would be a wall hanger only.

                  The next problem is minor. It is loaded in both chambers! I told my co-worker that these old muzzle loaders were often kept loaded when hung on the wall. He was a bit incredulous at the suggestion but ran the ramrod down both barrels. The ramrod stops about 2" ahead of the nipples. If you push down lightly on the rod you can feel the wad give. It also makes the telltale thump of a seated wad. From a safety standpoint I believe that we should pull the charges with a ball puller threaded into the wads. I can't see any value in leaving it charged. I remember reading an article, published by Turner Kirkland in the early 1970s, where a civil war musket that had been loaded for over 100 years fired the charge left in the barrel. The owner believes that this gun has passed through two generations without being fired. Probably highly unlikely that it would fire with both nipples peened over but I suppose an unfortunate house fire could touch it off. I don't believe that leaving it charged adds any value. Your thoughts?

                  The name on the top rib reads. I.WUNDERLICH A WUNSIEDEL. The first letter is a capital i.

                  This shotgun is for sale but he has no idea what to ask for it. Any thoughts on that?

                  Ebony trigger guard with fox carving.
                  Click image for larger version

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                  Last edited by Rockydog; 02-07-2019, 23:09.
                  Every once in a while in life we need a policeman, a lawyer, a doctor and a preacher. We need a farmer three times a day, every day.

                  Et Canis Manducare Canis Mundi

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                  • #10
                    By all means, pull the charges. With the dry firing you describe, it's a wonder no one put a cap on just for S&G, and as easy as it would be to either replace the nipples or drill them out, well, you can see where that goes.

                    An overly hurried google search came up with nothing useful in the way of finding comparatives. But FWIW, Wunsiedel is a town in (obviously) Germany. Wunderlich is not an uncommon name.
                    -Remote locations are cheap insurance.
                    -There are two kinds of ships: Submarines and targets

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                    • #11
                      Thanks for the feedback. RD

                      Hooked breech. Apologies for the crappy photo.

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                      Last edited by Rockydog; 02-07-2019, 23:12.
                      Every once in a while in life we need a policeman, a lawyer, a doctor and a preacher. We need a farmer three times a day, every day.

                      Et Canis Manducare Canis Mundi

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Upon a more thorough review not only have the nipples been destroyed but the hammers are worn through the "cups" where they hit the flattened nipples. I shared my review with the owner today. He was disappointed that it was not a gun that could be a shooter again without an underlug rebuild at a minimum, providing that the barrels were deemed safe, and that the nipples and hammers would need to be replaced. He said he would just take it to an antique dealer for wholesale. I asked what he expected to get for it. He shot a number that was far less than I expected. I asked if he'd accept that in cash. It now has a new owner. I told him that it will hang over his Grandfather's roll top desk. The spot where it had hung for at least 60 years. He broke into a big grin.

                        The desk.
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                        Every once in a while in life we need a policeman, a lawyer, a doctor and a preacher. We need a farmer three times a day, every day.

                        Et Canis Manducare Canis Mundi

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Good for you, on both counts!! That's quite the desk also! Yes, pull the loads. As you're hanging it on the wall the nipples won't matter but, as you probably surmised, changing them might be a challenge in finding the correct thread size.
                          "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools". Romans 1:22

                          "Those who fail to study history are condemned to repeat it"

                          NRA Benefactor,

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                          • #14
                            Gentlemen, After I purchased the shotgun above I did pull the charges. The over shot wads were wadded up newspaper as were the over powder wads. It was still readable and was in English but very tiny font. As I unfolded the wads the articles were about the need for strong labor unions to protect workers, immigrant worker competition for labor, and other political talk. The biggest intact piece I was able to recover was about 3"x3" so I never did get exactly what they were discussing. I had a devil of a time pulling one over powder wad as the paper was somewhat decayed. I eventually super glued a couple of thin finishing nails, bent into some shallow hooks, on to a wood dowel. I was then able to snare the wad with the nails and pull it out. On a 1" square piece of paper, possibly from a page corner, was a date of April 9, 1919. Assuming that the paper used was fairly new at the time, this gun was loaded 100 years ago!!! The shot was not very uniform with some as small as 7 1/2 shot and some near about 6 shot. Some of the shot was nearly square and a couple of shot were fused "figure 8" like.

                            I has showed it to my local gunsmith who has a 12 gauge SxS ML shotgun hanging on his shop wall. He is in his mid 70s and said that he used to shoot the one on the wall using 1/2 of a sheet of newspaper as an over powder wad and 1/4 sheet of newspaper as the over shot wad. He was a bit nervous about the damascus barrels and stopped shooting it in the 1960s. He was using a 1 oz. shot cup and the same measure for the BP loads.

                            I was talking to a friend, who is also a member of this site, about the shotgun pictured and described above and my inability to find anything about it on the net. He used a different search engine than I was using and pulled up a reference in about 2 minutes as we talked on the phone. He found a photo of nearly an identical gun in the "Guns of the NRA National Museum" It's also a 20 Gauge by the same maker but in much better shape than mine and more ornate than mine, with the metal engraving filled with gold, where mine has some german silver. The trigger guard bow on mine is carved ebony while the trigger on the NRA gun is metal.

                            At any rate I'm thrilled with the fact that he found some info on the gun. Here's a link to the online book, you'll need to scroll to page 236 to view it.
                            https://books.google.com/books?id=XqREDwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=isbn: 0785835326&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwignYTc-cbhAhWPna0KHXdsBEEQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q&f=fa lse

                            Every once in a while in life we need a policeman, a lawyer, a doctor and a preacher. We need a farmer three times a day, every day.

                            Et Canis Manducare Canis Mundi

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                            • #15
                              What a story! That 100-years-exactly has to be some kind of omen. You need to write that up and keep it with the gun somehow.

                              For my 15th birthday my parents gave me a beautiful little London-made 14-ga percussion double. It was light and came to the shoulder like a feather. It took a good many pheasants for me. When I went to college my parents thought it would look great over their fireplace. They had a break-in and of course it was stolen. I imagine it wound up as a sawed-off for robbing 7/11s. An ignoble end for a sweet little aristocrat. Glad yours has been spared such a fate.
                              Homo sapiens, [ˈhōmō ˈsāpēənz] Noun. An advanced primate characterized by a large brain which it seldom uses.

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