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  • Update for 270 cast boolits

    I started this project here:

    https://www.handloadersbench.com/for...in-cast-anyone

    and today shot the ladder I dreamed up of 3 loads each in one grain increments from 26-31 grains of H4895 loaded in minimum resized Remington brass, CCI200 primers and the RCBS 150gr .278 GC boolit. It weighs 156gr sized lubed and checked.

    My 270WIN barrel has a 1-9 twist and is 24" long. I don't know if the twist had anything to do with the results, but the boolits loaded with 31gr of powder disappeared. I saw one hit in the berm several feet away from the target. The loads with 30 grains of powder opened up considerably over the lighter charges.

    Best accuracy was with 26 and 27 grains of H4895, then groups opened a little with 28 and 29 grains, and 30 grains was a "minute of deer" load at around 2"

    I plan on chrono'ing the 26, 27, and 28gr loads soon, but have calculated them at 1700, 1765, and 1830 fps respectively using Richard Lee's reduced load method.

    Looks like Charley wins the prize with his 1800fps opinion. All in all, I'm pretty darn happy they shoot this well.
    Wimachtendienk, Wingolauchsik, Witahemui

    He who knows not and knows not that he knows not, is a fool.
    He who knows not and knows he knows not, is wise.

  • #2
    "Looks like Charley wins the prize with his 1800fps opinion. All in all, I'm pretty darn happy they shoot this well."

    Dunno if this is pertinent but I started shooting a 220 gr. cast bullet from the 30-06 at 1600 FPS with reasoably good results in a Browning B76 rifle.. I got this from a book "SPEAKING FRANKLY" which is a compilation of article by the late Frank Marshall who shot cast in competition. I have been shooting a 175 gr. .30 caliber bullet from the .308 Win. and 30-06 in the vicinity of 1600 FPS and the .308 is 1.5MOA at 200 yards. The 30-06 is about 2 MOA at 200. Of I hit the top portion of the 300 meter pig silhouette with the 175 gr. bullet in the top 25 percent of the target the pig will slowly reluctantly fall. Cast and velocity can do funny things sometimes. That's what makes it fun.
    Paul B.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Paul B View Post
      "Looks like Charley wins the prize with his 1800fps opinion. All in all, I'm pretty darn happy they shoot this well."

      Dunno if this is pertinent but I started shooting a 220 gr. cast bullet from the 30-06 at 1600 FPS with reasoably good results in a Browning B76 rifle.. I got this from a book "SPEAKING FRANKLY" which is a compilation of article by the late Frank Marshall who shot cast in competition. I have been shooting a 175 gr. .30 caliber bullet from the .308 Win. and 30-06 in the vicinity of 1600 FPS and the .308 is 1.5MOA at 200 yards. The 30-06 is about 2 MOA at 200. Of I hit the top portion of the 300 meter pig silhouette with the 175 gr. bullet in the top 25 percent of the target the pig will slowly reluctantly fall. Cast and velocity can do funny things sometimes. That's what makes it fun.
      Paul B.
      RCBS Tech said the bullet was good for 1400-2300fps, but it seems slower is better in all the cast loads I've dealt with (which ain't much). I hope to get some chrono time in on these loaded with 26-28gr of H4895 soon.
      Wimachtendienk, Wingolauchsik, Witahemui

      He who knows not and knows not that he knows not, is a fool.
      He who knows not and knows he knows not, is wise.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by olyeller View Post

        RCBS Tech said the bullet was good for 1400-2300fps, but it seems slower is better in all the cast loads I've dealt with (which ain't much). I hope to get some chrono time in on these loaded with 26-28gr of H4895 soon.
        Well, lots of luck. The only bullet smaller than 30 caliber I've ever worked with has been .22. My advice is DON'T! Reject rate is abominably high and fat fingers and tiny bullets and gas check are good for tons of frustration and four letter words. Take my word on that.

        Just out of curiosity, are you water dropping your bullets? Add a small amount of #7 1/2 shot to you alloy ir better yer #8 or #9. About third of a cup is plenty. The water drop you bullets and after about a week's age hardening they'll be harder than an IRS auditors heart. Should run about 29 to 32 BHN depending on what else in in tour alloy.
        Paul B.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Paul B View Post

          Well, lots of luck. The only bullet smaller than 30 caliber I've ever worked with has been .22. My advice is DON'T! Reject rate is abominably high and fat fingers and tiny bullets and gas check are good for tons of frustration and four letter words. Take my word on that.

          Just out of curiosity, are you water dropping your bullets? Add a small amount of #7 1/2 shot to you alloy ir better yer #8 or #9. About third of a cup is plenty. The water drop you bullets and after about a week's age hardening they'll be harder than an IRS auditors heart. Should run about 29 to 32 BHN depending on what else in in tour alloy.
          Paul B.
          Yes I water drop; using straight COWW
          Wimachtendienk, Wingolauchsik, Witahemui

          He who knows not and knows not that he knows not, is a fool.
          He who knows not and knows he knows not, is wise.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by olyeller View Post

            RCBS Tech said the bullet was good for 1400-2300fps, but it seems slower is better in all the cast loads I've dealt with (which ain't much). I hope to get some chrono time in on these loaded with 26-28gr of H4895 soon.
            With a 1:9 twist slower is going to be better. You have a good powder to work with but at some point you going to hit the velocity / stability wall with that particular bullet and accuracy is going to go south really fast. If you barrels twist was slower such as a 1:12 or higher you could extend the velocity / stability threshold a bit higher and still hold the same accuracy possibly even gain on it a bit. I your using wheel weights try heat treating them in a toaster over at 400 degrees for about an hour and water quench them, you will get a much higher BHN in a couple weeks and the bullet will get a better grip on the rifling and no be as prone to slippage.

            All my rifles are 30 cal. with 1:10 twist bores and on average good accuracy is obtain with cast bullets in the 180 to to 200+ gr. range with velocities in the 1800 to 2K fps. range. The only exception to that is my 30-30 which hasa 1:12 twist bore and I can do factory velocity with a 170 gr. FN cast bullet with excellent accuracy with no problem.
            Last edited by res45; 05-31-2018, 20:56.
            SKS M59/66A1 / Chinese /26 Poly SKS / Mosin M44 / Savage 99 300 Sav. / Ruger Blackhawk 357/9mm convertible / PA-63 Mak. / Sav. 93G 22 WMR & Sav. Mark II 22 RF.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by res45 View Post

              With a 1:9 twist slower is going to be better. You have a good powder to work with but at some point you going to hit the velocity / stability wall with that particular bullet and accuracy is going to go south really fast. If you barrels twist was slower such as a 1:12 or higher you could extend the velocity / stability threshold a bit higher and still hold the same accuracy possibly even gain on it a bit. I your using wheel weights try heat treating them in a toaster over at 400 degrees for about an hour and water quench them, you will get a much higher BHN in a couple weeks and the bullet will get a better grip on the rifling and no be as prone to slippage.

              All my rifles are 30 cal. with 1:10 twist bores and on average good accuracy is obtain with cast bullets in the 180 to to 200+ gr. range with velocities in the 1800 to 2K fps. range. The only exception to that is my 30-30 which hasa 1:12 twist bore and I can do factory velocity with a 170 gr. FN cast bullet with excellent accuracy with no problem.
              Thanks for the good info and sharing your experience. That is what makes this site so good.

              I water drop, so the heat treating has already occurred. Also, I saw no evidence of leading in the barrel, so I suppose the 1-9 twist is over-stabilizing them. I'm thinking of loading three more at 31gr just to see where they go, or if they are coming apart.
              Wimachtendienk, Wingolauchsik, Witahemui

              He who knows not and knows not that he knows not, is a fool.
              He who knows not and knows he knows not, is wise.

              Comment


              • #8
                Have you considered powder coating or Hi-Tek coating? for the Hi-Tek you can just buy commercial cast bullets already coated for pretty cheap. HT coat generally works much better than just cast/lube bullets at higher velocities.. how much? opinions vary. Powder coat seems to increase velocities so you could actually back off on powder charge.. Powder coating is more of a home made thing to so far as I know. I do both but only with handgun bullets in the 1400 fps range tops. Coating is simply one more option we have these days with cast bullets.

                lazs

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by lazs View Post
                  Have you considered powder coating or Hi-Tek coating? for the Hi-Tek you can just buy commercial cast bullets already coated for pretty cheap. HT coat generally works much better than just cast/lube bullets at higher velocities.. how much? opinions vary. Powder coat seems to increase velocities so you could actually back off on powder charge.. Powder coating is more of a home made thing to so far as I know. I do both but only with handgun bullets in the 1400 fps range tops. Coating is simply one more option we have these days with cast bullets.

                  lazs
                  I've PC'd some 30 cal and 357 too. This 278 bullet has a long bore riding portion and may be really hard to close a bolt on if PC'd.
                  Wimachtendienk, Wingolauchsik, Witahemui

                  He who knows not and knows not that he knows not, is a fool.
                  He who knows not and knows he knows not, is wise.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    "I water drop, so the heat treating has already occurred. Also, I saw no evidence of leading in the barrel, so I suppose the 1-9 twist is over-stabilizing them. I'm thinking of loading three more at 31gr just to see where they go, or if they are coming apart."

                    Heat treating would make the bullet harder than just water quenching. The 1:9 twist is actually under stabilizing your bullet as the velocity goes higher all the minor defects that cause instability in cast lead bullets are accentuated. A slower twist bore such as a 1:12 allows you to shoot the bullet faster but keep the RPM in the normal stability range for that bullet. So basically your usable velocity range is going to be somewhere in the 1600 to 1800 fps. range maybe slightly higher before accuracy goes south.
                    SKS M59/66A1 / Chinese /26 Poly SKS / Mosin M44 / Savage 99 300 Sav. / Ruger Blackhawk 357/9mm convertible / PA-63 Mak. / Sav. 93G 22 WMR & Sav. Mark II 22 RF.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Water dropping does a decent job of making harder bullets but it all depends on what your alloy consists of. One essential part for water dropping is usually not present in current wheel weight mets and was in a very small amount even in wheel weights back in the mid 1970's. I still have about 40 pounds of cleaned weights I bought in 1973. Choice stuff. I mentioned earlier about adding small chilled or magnum shot to the mix, and not a large amount at that. The reason is the smaller the shot the higher the arsenic content. WTF? Arsenic? Yup! Seems it has the properties to make a heat treated bullet much harder when water dropped. It acts as a catalyst for the process.
                      I use a small toaster over set ar 425 degrees and cook the bullets I want to harden for about an hour to two hours depending on how big a hurry I'm in. Then a quick drop into ice water (ice optional but I prefer using it). Bullets will run into the mid 25's BHM on immersion and after a week with run 29 to 32 BHN depending on what else is in your alloy. Interesting thing is water dropped bullet harden over about a week to a months time and then slowly begin to soften at room temperature. After a few years they can be almost as soft as when the were first cast prior to the water drop. I have some .44 caliber bullets and some 30 caliber bullets that I did over five years ago. No way to do a test on the .30's but the .44's ran 32 on the scale. For some reason I never got around to loading them. Probably too many projects and not enough time. I checked a few of the .44's and they still run 29 to 30 on the scale. The .30's are still so hard that it is impossible to even scratch them with a fingernail.
                      What I do ecommend should one go this route is after the bullets are cast, size then to whatever size you want but do not lube. Then do the toaster over/water drop routine, wait a week or so to let them age harden and lube using a larger size die for the process. Say .310" size for a .30 caliber and lube with a .311" die. Two reasons. One those bullets will be so hard that sizing them won't be fun. (Ask me how I know.) Two, if you resize after hardening, the sizing will defeat the hardening and it will deteriorate at a much faster rate. (Again, ask me how I know.)
                      I've been casting bullets and loading since 1954 and while I'll freely admit I still don't know it all, I can pass on what has worked so far for me.
                      For spits and grins, I have a large batch of Lyman #311282 and #311284 bullets cast up for one of my projects. I have to size them, treat them and lube them but I'm waiting for it to cool down some. We're hitting 100* now and my shed even with the A/C going is not all that much fun to work in.
                      Basic project is load those bullets, 282 is a plain based version of 282 in the 30-06 cartridge and shoot them at 1600 FPS in a Browning B78 single shot rifle. First tests will be at 100 yards and then 200 and 300 yards if the 200 yard groups appear reasonable. Should be fun if I ever get around to finishing the project.
                      Paul B.

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                      • #12
                        Hmmmmm.....learn something new every day if you listen.
                        Thanks res45 and Paul. I have a toaster oven I'll have to try that heat treat method with.

                        res45, what I mean by "over stabilizing" is that the 1-9 twist is too fast. It is spinning them too fast and they become fliers or come apart. 1-9 twist at 2000fps MV is 160,000 rpm whereas 1-10 twist at 2000fps MV is 144,000 rpm.
                        Wimachtendienk, Wingolauchsik, Witahemui

                        He who knows not and knows not that he knows not, is a fool.
                        He who knows not and knows he knows not, is wise.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by olyeller View Post
                          Hmmmmm.....learn something new every day if you listen.
                          Thanks res45 and Paul. I have a toaster oven I'll have to try that heat treat method with.

                          res45, what I mean by "over stabilizing" is that the 1-9 twist is too fast. It is spinning them too fast and they become fliers or come apart. 1-9 twist at 2000fps MV is 160,000 rpm whereas 1-10 twist at 2000fps MV is 144,000 rpm.
                          That's what I meant I think we just said it differently. I blew up a few HV cast lead bullets in the day before I figured out what was causing it.
                          SKS M59/66A1 / Chinese /26 Poly SKS / Mosin M44 / Savage 99 300 Sav. / Ruger Blackhawk 357/9mm convertible / PA-63 Mak. / Sav. 93G 22 WMR & Sav. Mark II 22 RF.

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                          • #14
                            PC does indeed increase dia of the bullet. Hi-Tek on the other hand adds almost nothing.

                            lazs

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