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  • wildcat Rounds

    Im new to reloading rifle loaded some 223 for understanding the press. thats the only set of dies I own at the moment. have. 3 years and 1000's of pistol rounds, just so we understand I'm not new new . so here is whats going on : I have Had a Japanese Ariska carbine type 38 that has been re chambered to a 243 and I'm running out of the ammo that I got with the rifle. so I want to know is how these rounds were made so I may duplicate them. i will eventually have a set of dies made but not at this time. (-$$) I do understand the fire form process so we can skip that part. just wondering what sets ,or parts to buy. I have a Dillon 550c and love it.

  • #2
    Rechambered/rebarreled to .243, or is the original barrel rechambered to use 243 brass necked up to 6.5? If so, case would be very close to the 260 Remington.
    Last edited by Charley; 1 week ago.
    "The fact that guns can kill another human being is the whole point. That\'s why they are so darn good at deterring violent criminals". Ann Coulter

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    • #3
      If your fired brass chambers easily you might get by with only neck sizing for a while. If the chamber is same as a 243 perhaps the body only could be sized with a 7mm 08 die. Might not need the expensive die.
      I was raised in the 50\'s on jackrabbits and gunpowder.salt and pepper wooda made\'em taste better

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      • #4
        This will be an almost impossible challenge without the correct dies. The hardest part is getting the headspacing right without a die to set it up. If by chance a .243 case will stop at the shoulder correctly headspaced and you can fireform with cream of wheat that would be great. But you'll still have to resize the neck to 6.5 to hold the bullet in place. If the .243 case goes in too far you can use a 7-08 and maybe even a 308 case and resize the larger neck down to a "false" shoulder to control the headspace. After fireforming you'll again need some way to neck size to 6.5. Perhaps a .243 bushing die that would hold a .264 bushing.

        I shoot a wildcat 6.5 Arisaka. Here is a link to a false necked case. See the bottom of the first post for the pic. false shoulder is second case from left.

        https://www.handloadersbench.com/for...orming-process
        Every once in a while in life we need a policeman, a lawyer, a doctor and a preacher. We need a farmer three times a day, every day.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Blacksmith4x4 View Post
          Im new to reloading rifle loaded some 223 for understanding the press. thats the only set of dies I own at the moment. have. 3 years and 1000's of pistol rounds, just so we understand I'm not new new . so here is whats going on : I have Had a Japanese Ariska carbine type 38 that has been re chambered to a 243 and I'm running out of the ammo that I got with the rifle. so I want to know is how these rounds were made so I may duplicate them. i will eventually have a set of dies made but not at this time. (-$$) I do understand the fire form process so we can skip that part. just wondering what sets ,or parts to buy. I have a Dillon 550c and love it.
          OK, I'm going off the wall here. It just might be a good idea to have a gunsmith do a chamber cast including the throat. What you have is so close to the .260 Remington that if headspacing allows you might be able to shoot that round. A chamber cast shouldn't cost all that much and it just might answer all your questions. I'm I'm right it would simplify a lot of your problems and .260 Rem, dies are't all that expensive. Anyway, that's what I would do.
          Paul B.

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          • #6
            ok Im going to try and get all these at once. Fired Brass mic's as 243, the barrel is stamped 243x6.5 so it has been re-chambered. I bought a box of REM 260 and tried it chamber it NO GO it went in about 3/8''. also bought the factory Japanese round and it just fall in where the extractor won't grab it . all of the ammo I have is head stamped 243 or 308. I have thought of 7mm-08 but I didn't want to get in to neck turning if I didn't have to. if it led to that. so my thoughts are 243 resize die , with a 6.5 expander & seat die then after I fire formed I would neck size. of corse. my brother in law gave me the rifle about ten years ago and ,well now I have I begun reloading so now I'm digging in with all the hoo-ha about how flat the 6.5 shoot I think I'll play with at the range and really tune it its just my new project from a long time ago. so if I'm off base please let me know, like I said rifle rounds are a new adventure. I will cast the chamber with cerrosafe when I order a custom set if I can't get there first. so I have only 12 rounds left and I want to put on a new optic. so the rounds I have were made some how and I guess thats what I'm searching for is the process the previous owner had loaded these rounds , thanks for the help.

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            • #7
              Blacksmith, This info might make things pretty easy. Perhaps you can buy a .243 bushing sizing die and use a 6.5 neck sizing bushing in the .243 die. I'd call RCBS, or one of the other die manufacturers, and ask their advice. This would give you one pass sizing with no messing around with multiple dies and steps. As for cases from .243 and .308 only; How old is the rifle and brass? The .243 was introduced in 1955. The .260 not until 1997. Could be why you see no 260 brass.

              Just to get a look at the differences, here are some case specs from The Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions. All measurements are from there except case capacity on the .260. I believe there was a typo in their H20 capacity figure so I used a different source. Any case dimensions not shown, rim size and diameter at the case head are identical between the two cartridges.

              Specification....................243 Win..................260 Rem
              Case Length....................2.045................... ...2.035
              Neck Diameter Outside.... .276...................... .297
              Neck Length..................... .240...................... .259
              Shoulder Length............... .252...................... .216
              Length Base to Shoulder.. 1.553....................1.560
              Shoulder angle..................19.55*................... 20*
              Case Dia at Shoulder........ .455...................... .454
              Loaded Length.................. 2.65...................... 2.80
              Case capacity.................... 52.81 gr. H2O......53.50 gr. H2O

              RD
              Every once in a while in life we need a policeman, a lawyer, a doctor and a preacher. We need a farmer three times a day, every day.

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              • #8
                Now thats what I'm talking about! Thanks RD, I have A Hornady & Nosler Manuels The rifle is Arisaka Type 38 Japanese (1897) modified the cartridge in 1905 from a Swedish Mouser. the round I have are loaded IMR 4895 39 gn 140 gn. not sure what the manufacture year is on this one it has symbols that are under the scope mounts I looked it up once before I just don't remember but the C.O.L. is up to 2.992 in a 243 so to me thats gonna allow a bit more power than the Creedmoore and more of a selection in projectiles, so with the 6.5 BC its's going to be fun.if all works out like I hope I may have it reamed to 243 AI. I killed My First Deer with a 6.5 Swedish mouser so I'm a little partial to the 6.5. again this is a no hurry project just something to tinker with, just doing some spongeing.

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                • #9
                  Blacksmith, Here's a little light reading on Arisakas for you. https://www.handloadersbench.com/for...and-cartridges

                  Here's a look at my 6.5, Still needs a refinish. https://www.handloadersbench.com/for...le-porn/page52 See post 773 and 774. Also check out Don Arlie's Arisaka on page 51 post 760. IIRC Don has a couple of Arisakas.
                  Every once in a while in life we need a policeman, a lawyer, a doctor and a preacher. We need a farmer three times a day, every day.

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                  • #10
                    nice read! Nice rifle, Dons' Too . so how is your accuracy? or are you saying that I may be wasting some time and energy in my endeavors / lol! ill get a pic up soon but mine is a carbine with a Mannlicher stock the re weld of the bolt is pretty good. Its a pretty nice piece. I think the rifle has some potential . thanks for the help. I'm going to look into the bushed dies ,there is so much to learn

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                    • #11
                      Blacksmith, The story of my 6.5 has been rehashed on here several times but the easiest way to answer your questions is simply to post the link. https://www.handloadersbench.com/for...bs-again-today

                      As for your rifle, I'd be all over it. My bet is that it will shoot very well. The early 6.5 Arisaka military bullets were 160 grain RN this was later changed to 139 grain spitzer bullets. The twist rate reported on the web varies from 1:8 to 1:9 depending on who you believe. I know that the twist in mine shoots either 140s or 160s with no problems at all. I don't know what the throating is like in your rifle but if it's generous the twist will support long bullets.

                      Here is what a 160 Grain Sierra RN (now discontinued) will do to a large white tail at 130 yards. This is an exit wound high in the front shoulder of a large WI buck. RD

                      Click image for larger version

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                      Last edited by Rockydog; 1 week ago.
                      Every once in a while in life we need a policeman, a lawyer, a doctor and a preacher. We need a farmer three times a day, every day.

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                      • #12
                        Blacksmith4x4:

                        Taking into consideration everything that has been presented thus far... It would seem to me that you have some kind of wildcat that was made prior to the introduction of the .260 Rem. Thus you have two reasonable options. OPt 1: Send 3 or 4 fired cases into RCBS or Redding and have a custom set of dies made... The downside of this is such that they are expensive. Likely up to $150.00 for a set of dies.
                        OR OPT 2: Have a competent gunsmith rechamber said rifle to .260 Rem. This option allows you to shoot factory ammo, and also to use standard reloading dies. If the barrel did not have to be set back, this could likley be accomplished for less that half a custom set of dies. By sizing your cases in a .243 Win die, and then necking them back to 6.5, is going to cause extreme working of the necks resulting in very short brass life. I'll be curious to see how you solve your dilemma. Remember the only one you have to please is yourself. :-)

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                        • #13
                          Grasshopper, I don't believe that the 260 reamer can be used to recut the .243 chamber, without setting the threads back, as the 260 case is shorter in some dimensions than the .243.

                          As discussed above this may be as easy as ordering a .243 bushing die and using a .264 ID neck bushing in it rather than a .243 ID neck bushing. See the diagram below. The bushing sits on top of the case shoulder. I'm not sure this can be done but I believe Redding, Hornady, and RCBS all make bushing dies now. If this would work it could actually increase the number of wildcats around as the expense of the dies sometimes outweighs the benefits of the wildcat.


                          Click image for larger version

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                          Every once in a while in life we need a policeman, a lawyer, a doctor and a preacher. We need a farmer three times a day, every day.

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                          • #14
                            Update !!!

                            turns out after more time in the books and dial calipers. it appears to be a half of a chamber resize. it is closer to a .257 Roberts or Sweedish Mouser but didn't deepen the hole but a few 1000ths so the round is closer to factory 6.5X55 Jap in depth and enlarger just enough to to chamber the resized .243 to a Roberts and left the head space to fire form. I have been scratching my head on how they did this it is still puzzling.But I now have a Plan ! i will go ahead and re-chamber to fit .257 Roberts ACK IMPx 6.5. so now I'm excited for my new project I have found a company that rents the reamers instead of buy-in them that should save a few bucks Unless i can find a reasonable gunsmith i'll weigh the options as i get there, meaning I don't know any need to locate. here are the loaded Dimension of WILDCAT ROUND ? HACK. Feel free to take a look at the specs and go in circles or see something I'm not seeing.


                            Specification.................... ARISAKA..................?????/ .243 x 6.5 stamped on barrel
                            Case Length....................2.061................... ...
                            Neck Diameter Outside.... .298...................... .
                            Neck Length..................... .267......................
                            Shoulder Length............... .205.....................
                            Length Base to Shoulder.. 1.610....................1.560
                            Shoulder angle..................?????................... Fire formed
                            Case Dia at Shoulder........ .435.....................
                            Loaded Length.................. 2.92
                            Checked Ogive .................2.540 (from case head not chamber/seated bullet)
                            from shoulder to lands the throat is .725 which appears to be plenty to remove around .300 for the .257 Roberts AI IMP


                            .257 Roberts Brass is High but it looks like i can Swage .270 or 25-06, neck size, and then Fire Form , any sudgestions ? RCBS has an .257 Roberts Ackley Imp Die but don't know how swaging through the 40* shoulder would work seems like it would crush the brass.


                            FUN, FUN,FUN,
                            Last edited by Blacksmith4x4; 4 days ago.

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                            • #15
                              So you are going to use the .257 bullet or still going to a .264? Have you slugged the bore yet?
                              Every once in a while in life we need a policeman, a lawyer, a doctor and a preacher. We need a farmer three times a day, every day.

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